When does a person become a living soul?
 

Does a person become a living soul at:

1. Conception
2. Sometime during gestation
3. At Birth?

I look forward to your comments!

Well Brother, I'll be brave and give it a go

(BTW, thankyou for your encouragement over the years, you have been such a blessing).

Now, this is how it was taught to me in TBDI (only very briefly, during a course on romans).

At conception, a child has a spirit and a body. The spirit is alive. The body is alive. When the child is born and takes it's first breath, the soul is created in the child, and that child becomes a living soul.

Dr Lince didn't mention anything else at that time, although he may cover it more in a different course, so that's about all I know of the position.

I don't know enough about the position to say either way. Without a life, the body and the spirit are alive at conception. As for the soul, I don't know.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Hello,Luke and drbible 1611! This topic is new to me. Looks interesting.

Based on the above verse, "man became a living soul" as soon as he had his body formed and had his spirit ("breath of life") breathed into him.

When does a person begins to have a body AND breath? I think that would be when he began to have a soul. I have been thinking that the body without the spirit never has a soul; but as soon as the body receives the spirit ("the breath of life"), it already has a soul.

Luke, that's my understanding too.

Gen 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [man's body], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [man's spirit]; and man became a living soul [man's soul]."

I believe a living, human being, known as a baby is in the womb at the moment of conception.

When does a human become a living soul? I "think" when he takes his first "breath," but I don't really know. That is to say, I'm not sure enough to utter or teach what I "think" as the final word of authority.

I meant to say "without a doubt, the body and spirit are alive at the moment of conception".

The spirit doesn't die until a knowledge of good and evil is understood, usually by the law.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once [before Paul knew right and wrong - when he was a young child]: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Of course, another way to take that verse would be to consider that Paul thought he was alive, and on his way to glory in the jewish religion, but when the commandment from Jesus came, he saw his sinfulness, and died to self.

Luke,


Luke I agree with this teaching, but you can also use Jeremiah or John the Baptist for this also. I like using Jeremiah the best. It talks about God forming Jeremiah. I think it is a much stronger verse for this issue.



Well it looks like God can even work on a baby in the womb. Also see John the Baptist on this issue. Therefore life must begin pre-birth or pre-breath. Notice God formed Jeremiah, not the dad and mom not nature, but God himself formed this child. At the moment of formation life begins. Many say the moment of conception. Both terms are correct in this matter.


Atlas

Yes.

I'm sorry, brother, but I can't answer with any more certainty than that. I lean toward #1 or #3, but although there are hints here and there, God has chosen not to spell this one out for us.

An ancillary question here would be,
If a child does not become a living soul until he takes his first breath, then what is the present and future condition of those who die or are killed before birth?

Wouldn't that depend on your view? If you believe at conception, a child has a spirit and a body, and that child dies in the womb, that child is with the Lord for all eternity. That's what I currently believe.

If, on the other hand, a person does not believe at "conception" a baby is not really a created person because they've yet to take their first breath, I suppose that person would have to believe the present and future condition is irrelevant.

What do you believe, brother Tim? And why?

I most definitely believe that the soul is created at conception. In fact (and not to start another topic here) I believe that the soul and spirit are distinct but inseparable except by the Sword (Word of God). [Hebrews 4:12]

The alternative of the introduction of the soul at birth not only opens the door wide for unrestricted abortion by removing the moral aspect, but it also brings total confusion as to the current and future circumstance of those who die in the womb, intentionally or unintentionally. That is horrendously troubling to me.

To me it doesn't diminish life by believing that the soul comes with the first breath. Personally, I value a human conception, regardless of what he or she is made up of. To me, a God created spirit and body being murdered is as bad as a God created spirit, soul, and body being murdered! That is a horrendously troubling thought to me. But I respect your view.

The subject of spirit, soul, & body of man is something the Lord has not opened my eyes to yet.

Some questions for those who see the soul entering the body at birth: (give references if possible)
1 ) When does the spirit get created? If at conception, why?
2 ) If the body is without a soul, is it alive? If no, then when is a baby alive?
3 ) Does the spirit separate from the soul at any point?
4 ) If the pre-born child has no soul, then if death occurs in the womb, does the child cease to exist?

Let's muddy the waters really well:
Are we:
1 ) bodies that have souls and spirits?
2 ) souls that have bodies and spirits?
3 ) spirits that have bodies and souls?

We are created in His image. We are a trichotomy.

Body, soul and spirit. Even in eternity we will have a body soul and spirit.

When God created Adam, he did it all straight away. Gave Adam a body, breathed into him (the spirit) and he became a living soul. All this by the power of God, immediately, the moment Adam was created.

I believe the same thing happens to a child created in the womb. God gives a child a body, a spirit, and the child is a living soul, before he is born. He doesn't create a body and spirit and then give a soul 9 months later.

Good thing our Salvation is not in jepardy with this topic.

without listing al the verses.

Only the first created man had life Breathed into him by God Eve was made completely living from Adams rib.

the Psalmist says the Lord knew me in my mother womb which wold indicate the person (soul) is already living while in gestation.

Seeing we are all born spiritually dead, and Job wished to be like a stillborn baby. It would be safe to concure that when a person takes their first breath they are born ina sinful state. if a child dies unborn or stillborn that child never took a breath in this world and thereby is innocent of sin as Job discribes.

Scripture tells us the person is already alive in the womb, known by the creator as a person while in gestation, and when he is born into the world he is born spiritually dead. Life begins at conception, sinful life begins at birth.

if I am correct I think George has some interesting stuff on his web page concerning Soul and Spirit. But don't quote me on that.

that should muddy it some more now.

What did David means when he said "In sin did my mother concieve me". As far as I am aware, David's mother was not a harlot, adulteress or fornicator, so that can only mean that he had a sinful nature from conception. Of course, not knowing good and evil, he would not be accountable for it as a child, in the womb or out.

The Bible refers to a woman who is pregnant as "with child," a phrase that appears in 25 verses in the Bible. Thus, the Bible says an unborn baby is indeed a "child," not some lower-class human. If we let the Bible define its own words, there can be no question that child = child, not child = pre-human. Besides, a fetus is simply a young human -- younger than an infant and a toddler, older than a zygote.

Now the real question is what legal standing (in the Bible) an unborn child has. It is clear that the rules of manslaughter with regard to unborn children show that there is a difference (Exodus 21:22), but even if we accept Mosaic law as binding here (which would be interesting, since the prior few verses allow a man to get away with killing his servant!), this is only a manslaughter issue, not a premeditated killing.

The Bible doesn't address abortion directly like we'd like it to. But as so many of the verses already quoted in this thread show, killing an unborn child is killing a person -- Jeremiah and John are described as having attributes of a person while in the womb. And to bring this back to the beginning, the Bible already makes it clear what an unborn human is -- a child! We don't let parents kill their children, plain and simple. There is no Biblical basis for excusing abortion.

Wow, look at this -- I had accepted this understanding of Exodus 21:22 so long that I didn't even read it before this post. Now I am reading it again and I think I was wrong:

Exodus 21:22-23 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Now I am reading this and suddenly this looks to be clearly a law that punishes life-for-life when someone causes a woman to have a miscarriage and either the woman or the child dies.

1. Fruit departing = premature birth.
2. No mischief follow: the child lives.
3. Mischief follows: the unborn child or woman dies, and death penalty applies.

At the very least, this verse isn't clearly an excuse to permit abortions on demand!

Agreed. More to the point, David refers to himself at conception -- not some pre-human mass of tissue:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

By using the words I and me David ascribed personhood to himself at conception.

I don't believe that's a safe conclusion at all, since David says he was conceived in sin.

Are you referring to this?

Job 3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

(Interesting that Job calls unborn children "infants," which would make abortion infanticide. He also calls himself newly conceived a "man child" in verse 3. It's getting pretty tough to define an unborn baby as anything less than a child in the Bible!)

I don't see how this addresses when sin nature arrives (David did that) or anything else but the state of suffering Job was in.

Guys,



Here is my problem with how some of you understand this verse.

1. God never formed any other person from dirt, not even Eve. She was made from Adam

2. God never breathed any one's nostrils other than Adam's.

3. We are made in Adam's fallen image.

4. All of our attributes came from Adam. Our body, soul and spirit also came from Adam. This is we must be reborn. We are born with Adam's spirit not God's spirit.

5. God did not make us literally, our mom and dad did this.

I think anyone that thinks you must breath open to be alive is 100% incorrect. The Bible dose not teach this.

Babies use oxygen, their mothers oxygen from the mothers blood. I do not see how anyone can believe you must breath open air to be alive. This is just crazy. A person breathing open air did not even make Adam a living soul, nor dose this verse make this claim. I do not see how using oxygen inside or outside of the womb can make you a living soul.

I do not think you can use Adam coming to life and use it to base our coming to life. There are so my differences in how we are made and how Adam was made. God also made the first dog, but he did not make the dog in your back yard.


Atlas

Cody has settled this question for me, at the other forum, by pointing out that fetuses receive oxygen through the umbilical cord. Adam and Eve, however, did not have such a mechanism, so God breathed into their nostrils.

I've had four children, and was present at all of their births; but it wasn't until now that this even occurred to me.

Anyway, unborn babies who die go to Heaven. No problem.

:)

If unborn babies go to heaven, then it implies that they have souls BEFORE birth.

Diligent,

no that is not what I was saying at all. what I meant was that the infant child unborn or stilborn that person never sees a sinful day. sinfulness is something that is llived out in life not in prebirth or death before birth.

now the curse of sin can permeate the very infant person even while being nit together in the womb which explains birthdefects. the the child is unconscience to the facts of it even though they are alive. Conscienceness is where sin nature in a person is and reigns. but the unborn knows none of these things. but they are a person or a life which explains why the death penalty for the mischeif of a child or mother caused by the wickednes of another.

I think the issue of sinful awareness is in conscienceness and unconscienceness. unborn or unconscience to existence and self realization but after their first breath they become self aware.

I don't think this is something we really need to debate, but I don't see any Biblical basis for believing that a human being, even just after conception, doesn't have the sin nature they have inherited in Adam's image.

Now God does not have to impute this sin on them and in fact does not until someone is able to be accountable for their sin. This doesn't happen until years after birth. You'll get no argument from me about "where do they go when they die" -- same with people who are mentally incapable of being aware of sin, etc. The following verses teach this: Isaiah 7:16; John 9:41; Deut 1:29; Deut 24:16; others) and David knew his newborn son would be in heaven (2Sam 12:23).

This is just speculation. I don't know how anyone could know that a newborn is self-aware. I believe the key here is the ability to understand. Nehemiah chapter 8 shows this.

Brother Tim, thank you for the thought provoking questions. I actually spoke with my wife about this subject last night, and when I shared my "current" view (that our babies had a "spirit" and "body" at conception, and the "soul" came with the first breath), she lovingly but passionately disagreed with me. The more we discussed and the more she reasoned with me from a mother's perspective, to be completely honest, the more I thought how "crazy" it was for me to think that our children were not formed in the womb with a spirit, soul, and body--as complete human beings.

So in the middle of a thread, I am now persuaded that at conception our children had a spirit, soul, and body. They were miraculously formed through the amazing design and plan of God. (We have a child who was born at 25 weeks and weighed 1 pound and 8 ounces and was only 11 inches long at birth. She is a miracle! Sarah Beth is now 12 years old and a delight to our family.) Did she have a soul in the womb? I would have to say absolutely.

I cannot give a lot of scriptural evidence other than using the same verse in Genesis 2 that I have already referenced. But I'm seeing it differently. Gen 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [man's body], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [man's spirit]; and man became a living soul [man's soul]."

As it has been pointed out by others, our entrance into this life is certainly not like Adam's. That's obvious. So we cannot make an exact comparison. But I now believe that the "pattern" and "design" was established with the first man, Adam. That is to say, this miracle of conception includes a spirit, soul, and body. Adam became a living soul when his spirit and body were united. A child in the womb is a living "soul" because a child in the womb has a "body" and a "spirit." To me, it stands to reason that if you have a spirit and a body, then you have a soul. That is my simple explanation and understanding.

We've been blessed with four wonderful children who are serving the Lord. As I mentioned on a prayer request thread, we have also lost four children due to miscarriages. One in the first trimester and three in the second trimester. Although it was very difficult, we are comforted in knowing God is sovereign and that He knew our children in the womb! He makes no mistake. :)

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I agree with you. This is a very complex subject and I can see how this thread could easily take off on sin nature. I just want to offer some scripture regarding "sin nature."

“Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one” (Job 14:4).

“What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous” (Job 15:14)?

The difference between Adam and his first born? Parents who were sinners. That is why we must be born again of incorruptible seed.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Welcome back, Laddy. I've missed your participation. That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

So what do you know about the subject of the thread?

Hey Brother, I am at my Mothers but I shall be brief in my answer. I have no net at home now so I get on occasionally when Im over here.

I have no doubt nor question in my mind that at "conception" in the womb is when life begins

Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.

The lord gave her conception, he gave her life inside her.

Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

The Psalmist speaks of his very "being" being possesed by God from the womb

Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

John the Baptist was known from the womb, he was the spirit of Elijah

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Samson was a nazarite unto God from the womb.

Judges 16:17 That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a rasor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

All through scripture, even the apostles class a "babe" as a new creature in Christ, the above portion of scripture leaves no doubt in my mind that from the moment of conception, the babe is a living soul.

I am sorry that you and your wife lost Children in the womb Brother, and also to those many others who have suffered similar, and may I say to anyone that wants to argue that your Children are not in heaven with our Lord as angels may I say
God Forgive you.

Great to hear from you again, PeopleoftheWay! Great verse!

Forrest, dear Brother! I wish that the distance was not so great between our homes, for I would enjoy sitting and enjoying fellowship face-to-face with you. It is rare even here among brethren (and sistren) who agree on many things to have someone openly confess to a change in understanding of a spiritual concept, and this could have been a divisive topic. I pray that I can be as open to the prompting of the Spirit of God, and, yes, He uses my wife often! :)

Thanks Brother, I havent felt moved to post lately and a lack of internet at my home has limited that option further. I am still lurking and reading making sure you are all behaving, especially that rascal Brother George :D

I would enjoy that too. Thanks for your encouragement, brother.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the link, Bro. Luke!

Based on Genesis 2:7, Ruckman says a baby does not have a soul until it breathes (at birth). That's why he believes abortion is not murder, but that doesn't mean that abortion is okay. He further says that truth is truth, whether men take advantage of it or not.

However, as shown in the discussions above, Scripture passages show that a baby is considered a person ("child", "infant") before birth.

I believe that a person has a body, soul, and spirit at conception. If breath is life, and life begins at conception, could it be that the baby starts to breathe (dependently to the mother) when conceived in the womb? (I'm not good in Biology, sorry for my ignorance!:D)

I know this interpretation has been thoroughly disproved already in this thread, but there is one more aspect to that which simply makes no sense and is totally inconsistent.

The first breath a baby takes is not "God's breath," like Adam's was. The first breath a baby takes is the polluted sin-infested air in which we know evil powers reside (Eph 2:2, etc). It is absurd to compare this breath with God's breathing into Adam. And for Dr. Ruckman to hold to that position makes little sense, since I know he also teaches that the creation of the atmosphere was not called "good" as the other steps in the creation week were. While I appreciate Dr. Ruckman's teaching on many subjects, I think it's a good idea to ignore his speculation on this one.

Diligent,

AMEN, AMEN and AMEN.

Dr. Ruckman is good 99% of the time, but he missed the boat big time on this issue.

There is no way we can use the creation of Adam to say anything about other folks born in a sinful world with a sinful nature.


Atlas

dil,

what I am saying is that a person in gestation and prebirth state has no conscienceness of his sin nature. I am not saying they don't have sin nature Birth defects prove that the nature is there.

no person knows there own sinful state prior to birth. It is only at birth the person becomes conscience or aware. that is what I have been trying to say

Okay, I think I understand your point. After more consideration I think we just can't make any assumptions either way (as to when a person is aware of themselves). Luke chapter 1 has John, pre-birth, leaping for joy -- not just some random kick. Maybe John was unique in that way, but some studies do show that unborn children do have some awareness of what is going on around them sometimes...

But as for sin, we both agree that unborn children are certainly not held accountable for their sin nature.

Aloha Atlas,

Please see my Post #47 > "Peter Ruckman Stance On Abortion" > Page 5.