[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by George

[FONT=Verdana]Aloha all,

I am starting a new Thread in regards to "rightly dividing" the Book of Acts because I believe the subject to be extremely import in understanding how to rightly divide the word of truth, and the Posts that were made in regards to this subject were "buried" in the Thread on "Water Baptism".

Brother George, I hope that cold has not gotten worse and that you are feeling better. You and me got a few passages to discuss. I'm not going to be accused of "creeping" in while a man is sick, so when you get well and are back into 4th gear physically, you and me need to discuss Acts 2:38 in it's context of Mark 16, Matthew 28, Leviticus 8, and it's tied to The Great Commission No One Wants To Talk About, John 20.

Grace and peace and get well.

Tony

[chette777]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Acts 2:38 in it's context of Mark 16, Matthew 28, Leviticus 8,

Just a little input

All these books fall under the dispensation of the Law for Israel and Acts is a transition to the Age of Grace. But Acts 2:38 is still a presentation to Israel so that the Kingdom can be established. Matthew is transitional from OT to NT of what some call the preparation for the Kingdom.

Have you read the book "One Book Rightly Divided"? I would not say that the dispenstional divisions that Staufer presents are not so cut and dry. Most tend to over lap. it is in the Sword Searcher.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

Just a little input

All these books fall under the dispensation of the Law for Israel and Acts is a transition to the Age of Grace. But Acts 2:38 is still a presentation to Israel so that the Kingdom can be established. Matthew is transitional from OT to NT of what some call the preparation for the Kingdom.

Have you read the book "One Book Rightly Divided"? I would not say that the dispenstional divisions that Staufer presents are not so cut and dry. Most tend to over lap. it is in the Sword Searcher.

Chette, the reason I have not so far commented in this thread is "for" the simple reason that neither Acts nor Matthew are a mystery to me and because I understand that Acts and Matthew are the two most dangerous books in the Scriptures to found a church, a theology, or a denomination in. I'm commenting at this time because I see a red flag and that red flag is in Acts 2:38, because I see a retranslation of the KJV and a redefinition of the English language in order to prove a denominational doctrine, not a sound doctrine.

I had two debates with two Church Of Christ "elders", both over a two-night span. In both debates of two hours each, I spent two minutes in Acts 2:38. I've seen denominational debaters with COC spend nearly the whole debate fighting over the Greek word "eis" ("for")in Acts 2:38. The simple reason that Acts 2:38 is not a point of contention between me and COC or anyone in opposition to COC is that without water baptism in Acts 2:38, there was no remission of sins, and this is found in The Great Commission No One Talks About:

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

First place we go to prove the signs of an apostle, tongues and miracles are not for today is Mark 16. There is one sign no one speaks of, becasue the Catholioc Church has claimed it, and few want to "exposit" or even discuss it, but along with the signs of Mark 16 was given the apostolic sign to remit sins or retain them, and this is just what the apostles had, including Paul, which is why Paul felt he needed to baptize(wash) Crispus and Gaius and the other Jews at Corinth. Paul knew this, and in describing his own water baptism knew that he, Paul, a Jew, had no remission of sins without first being baptized in water:

Ac 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Tell me what is wrong with these two readings, these two denominational interpretations:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because of the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What's wrong with these two verses above, brother Chette? What's wrong is that like Eve, in the first reading the denominationaists add to the word of God("because of" rather than "for"). This leaves us with the second reading where the denominationalists takes from the word of God.

Do you see it? Do you see the key? The key is not in wresting the word "for" over into another definition, the key is the word "the"

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Without water baptism in Acts 2:38 there was no remission of sins. I know how to read English, I understand the word "for", and I understand the word "for" when used in the context of "the". i know and understand that the apostles, Paul included, had to power to remit and retain sin. I know that water baptism, tongues, signs, wonders, healings, and the power to remit and retain sins are all no longer operative today and ceased after Acts 28. I know this mostly because there are no apostles today, an apostle must be chosen personally by Jesus Christ, and the Lord don't put in personal appearances in this age, other than His Spirit living in all of us who believe.

Acts 2:38 is a mirror image of Exodus 29, Exodus 40, and Leviticus 8:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Le 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

First step is above, consecration by water washing to cleanse the "priest", which John the Baptist came to do, the fulfillment of "all righteousness" of Matt. 3 to make a kingdom of priests.

Le 8:12 And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron’s head, and anointed him, to sanctify him.

Thus we see the converts at Pentecost:

Le 21:10 And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;

In this age, Acts Chapter 29, we are washed in the Blood of Jesus Christ and in regeneration by the Spirit so that we may put un Christ, not priestly garments

Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

His indwelling Spirit has been more than poured "on" us, but He fills us:

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

I appreciate brother George's, as usual, expert understanding and commentary on the Scriptures, but if this thread bears a topic "buried" in the water baptism thread, then it needs to be discussed over there in the water baptism thread, because I see the purpose that this study is heading towards is to try and define there as being "different types" of water baptism. We are going to end up with two threads discussing the topic of water baptism, and that's redundant and a waste of all our time.

From Lev. 8 through to it's last mention in I Cor., it's all the same baptism.

Grace and peace friends

Tony

[kevinvw]

Tony, I don't want to start anything about baptism, or any arguments or fights or anything. I'm just a little confused. The pouring of the oil was for the high priest. His sons were only sprinkled. Are you saying that everyone that the Holy Spirit was poured on is a high priest the same as Jesus?

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

Tony, I don't want to start anything about baptism, or any arguments or fights or anything. I'm just a little confused. The pouring of the oil was for the high priest. His sons were only sprinkled. Are you saying that everyone that the Holy Spirit was poured on is a high priest the same as Jesus?

No fight here brother, what the Scriptures say is the consecration of Aaron(high priest) and his sons(normal priests)in the water baptismal washings and their sanctification of the pouring of the oil(a type of the Holy Spirit) was identical.

God promised Israel, before Aaron and his sons ever became priests, that He would make Israel a "kingdom of priests" in Exodus 19. Look at the performance system Israel was under as the Chosen Nation: God says, you do this, I will do that. Don't do this, I won't do that. If Israel is going to lead the world, then they needed a period of time to train in God's Law. In Exodus 29 and 40 He tells Moses how to set up this priesthood. In Leviticus 8 Moses does it:

Normal Priests:
1. Water baptismal washing(consecration to be clean to wear the garments of a priest)
2. Pouring out of oil(a Bible type of the Holy Spirit, this is the second step, sanctification)

High Priests:
1. Water baptismal washing(consecration to be clean to wear the garments of a priest)
2. Pouring out of oil(a Bible type of the Holy Spirit, this is the second step, sanctification)

Jesus Christ As Israel's Great High Priest:
1. Water baptismal washing under John the Baptist(Matt. 3)
2. The literal sanctification in the Holy Ghost by God the Father(Matt.3), not in the OT "type", but what the type was a figure of and pointed to, the Holy Spirit.

Believing Israel Under John the Baptist, Christ and His Apostles:
1. Water baptismal washing under John the Baptist, Christ and His Apostles.
2. These converts did not receive the second act, sanctification, until after Christ died and was resurrected, because Christ was the Sanctifier and did not pour out the Holy Ghost as sanctification until Acts 2 Did this unknown group have then to be "rebaptized" at Acts 2?

No.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

These are the twelve men, one for each tribe, who then laid hands on the converts of John, Christ and His apostles that were not present at Pentecost in Acts 2 and gave them their second act of sanctification, the literal Holy Ghost and not the "type" of the Holy Ghost, oil. A question comes up: Who are these "lost converts" I am talking about here and why were not all of John and Christ's earthly converts present at Pentecost?

I don't know why they weren't present at Pentecost, I do know 12 of them shows up in Acts 19, because if these 12 had been at Pentecost, they would have already had the Holy Ghost and known who He was.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and [U]ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost./U]

Believing Israel In Acts 2, the "kingdom of priests":

1. Baptized in water, consecrated as priests in the water baptismal washing of Lev. 8 and Matt. 3.
2. Jesus Christ as the great High Priest pours out the sanctification, not in oil, but what the oil typified, the Holy Ghost of God.

Kevin, if I am hammering home anything in my messages and responses, it's consistency:

Water first, oil second.
Water first, Holy Ghost second.
Consecration(water), sanctification(oil, Holy Ghost).

What I am teaching is something that goes completely across the grain from what nearly all of you have had for church doctrine all your lives. I know I am frustrating in going against this belief of all of you on water baptism. If I have, am now, and will continue to give you a gift, it's this: I am consistent, I'm not confused about this, I don't change in the middle of a discussion. If I am a pain in the neck, at least give me that much credit.

Note these similutudes:

Israel needed a cleansing washing.
We need a cleansing washing.

Israel's washing was in water.
Our washing is in the Blood of Jesus Christ.

Israel's washing was in water to make them clean in order to put on their priestly garments.
Our washing is in the Blood of Jesus Christ to make us clean to put on Christ.

Kevin, there is no "fight", for one thing, I do not expect you to understand this in one reading instantly. I don't expect anyone to do anything except what God tells them to. As I told Brother Parrish, God uses us in whatever sect or denomination we may belong to. He uses most of you who are Baptists. He used Billy Sunday to massive effect, Billy Sunday was a Methodist.

I've apologized to brother Parrish for my part of his and my contention in the water baptism thread and in others. Let be men and discuss this thread like men and do the same in the water baptism thread until we move on to other topics and discussions.

1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Grace and peace Kevin

Tony

[kevinvw]

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

This is Peter preaching the return of Jesus to sit on the throne of David. We aren't looking for Jesus to sit on the throne of David, we are looking for Him in the clouds and listening for a shout.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Act 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Act 4:9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

You will notice a common theme in the preaching of Peter and the disciples, and that is the slain Son of God, whom the Jews had slain, not by their own hands, but by handing Him over to the Romans for execution. You may find the death, burial and ressurection in there, but not one time does Paul ever preach the repentance of slaying Jesus, the Holy child. Notice specifically that Peter commands them to repent and says that Jesus will be sent unto them if they do. That is not Church doctrine at all. In Acts 7, right before the entrance of Paul, is the stoning of Stephen who is the last man to preach the repentance for the slaying of the man Jesus, who was standing in wait to come back to bring in His kingdom, but was rejected. Then enters Paul, who is commissioned to the Gentiles, because the kingdom was rejected by the Jews who never repented of the slaying of the man Jesus. The preaching in Acts 1-7 is clear, and it is not for the present day Church.

[Winman]

I disagree. Paul did teach of the slaying of Jesus. But notice he teaches the repentance of sins to everlasting life, not the restoration of the kingdom.

Acts 11:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Notice Paul tells this group who is primarily Jewish, that through Jesus is preached the forgiveness of sins.

And this is before Paul says he will go to the Gentiles.

Acts 11:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles

Here, Paul does say that the gospel was first to be preached to the Jews. Notice Paul says they judged themselves unworthy of "everlasting life", not the restoration of the kingdom. Then, afterward, he says he will go to the Gentiles.

Where we disagree is that you believe Peter was preaching the restoration of the kingdom of Israel in Acts 2. I completely disagree. Peter was preaching the same message as Paul here, that upon believeing on Jesus Christ they would receive forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.

The only verse(s) that could remotely be understood in Acts to be the restoration of the kingdom is Acts 3:20. But the verse before and after show differently.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began

First, the restoration of the kingdom is not mentioned. In fact, the term "gospel of the kingdom" is not found in Acts anywhere, check and see for yourself. Yes, Peter did preach Jesus would return, but this is the same message we have today. Notice it says the heaven must receive Jesus until the "times" of restitution of all things, so Peter was obviously speaking of more than one age, and could not have been saying that Jesus would return upon repentance of killing Jesus. Note that in verse 10 Peter says repent that your sins may be blotted out, and does not mention the restoration of the kingdom.

Later in Acts, Peter confirms that the message to the Jews in the early chapters was for the forgiveness of sins upon believeing on Jesus and not this "kingdom gospel" you believe.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Here Peter says these Gentiles received the Holy Ghost just as they did on Pentacost. Note that these Gentiles received the Holy Ghost by hearing only, not baptism. Then note how Peter says God has granted to these Gentiles ALSO repentance unto life.

I say to you that I do not believe Peter was preaching a different gospel to the Jews. It was the same salvation message that Paul preached to the Gentiles. You have not a single verse that absolutely says that the apostles were preaching the restoration of the kingdom of Israel if they repented of killing Jesus. Peter was preaching the forgiveness of sins and everlasting life upon believeing on Jesus.

The Bible clearly teaches that the gospel was opened to the Gentiles when Christ rose from the dead in Ephesians chapter 2

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

So, it was not in Acts when the Gentiles were grafted in, it was when Jesus went to the cross, died, and rose from the dead.

And Paul clearly said that he persecuted "the church".

1 Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Here Paul is preaching to Gentiles. He tells them he persecuted "the church" of God. This clearly shows that the Jews in the early chapters of Acts were the same church as Paul spoke to much later after going to the Gentiles.

[chette777]

Winman,

a few reasons I see you always disagreeing

1) you will not rightly divide the word of truth
2) preconceived Ideas as to what the scriptures teach
3) failure to properly study to show thy self approved

[Winman]

Winman,

a few reasons I see you always disagreeing

1) you will not rightly divide the word of truth
2) preconceived Ideas as to what the scriptures teach
3) failure to properly study to show thy self approved

Again, you accuse me of not rightly dividing the truth, as though you have the keys to this knowledge alone.

And you do not present one verse of scripture to support your views, while I have presented many. If you think I misunderstand these scriptures, then correct me and show me my error.

And you assume I do not study the scriptures. Really? Is that how I came up with all these scriptures that argues against your view?

I think my posts with many scriptures that argues against your views speaks for themselves.

[chette777]

study can be done wrongly and it can be done rightly. no one said or assumed you didn't study. I think I used the words failure to Properly study. we have presented plenty of scripture and you always come back with the same line "I don't see it that way"

One way to see if you are studying properly is to see how what you learned has lined up with those who do study properly. If you are always arguing and debating it comes from some point of seeing yourself as always right and everyone else as always wrong. That is why I back away after a few posts with you.

As I said earlier it is like trying to share with a JW. they don't study properly and never see it that way. it is obvious by your remarks like JW's you approach the scriptures with some preconceived Ideas of scriptures that you have learned from some other teacher you respect. and you set out to argue or debate that view and hang on to it no matter what.

so now I will back away from this thread as it is obvious that you don't see it any other way than Winman see it. there by it is of no use to share anymore with you.