[Amanda S.]

The comments you all are making are great!

As to the uncles, we are very cautious as you all mentioned and really have very little to do with them at all just because that is the nature of my extended family. We're just not a close knit family. I appreciate the words of wisdom concerning that though...they are the type that have little respect and will drink or say pretty much what they please with little regard for a Christian. I could argue that they aren't really even saved...but I won't for sake of this particular discussion...

I really was trying to give an example...Is this only in a body of believers (church) setting or do we carry this out to every believer type of question.

Great examples on the covetous brethren too. I just have never personally seen (or heard of) a brother put away for this. I am thinking of one man in particular who I certainly would label as covetous, but just because his coveteousness is more visible, how are we to judge? I guess we can only go on the fruits that we see. He is certainly a good brother in other aspects.
I see what you are saying though as to just because you covet in your Christian life here and there (as we are all wont to do at times) doesn't make it a pattern...a lifestyle. We all sin, but if there is a pattern of a particular sin then that would be a cause for concern.

But again, I have never seen this carried out except perhaps w/ fornication...

Can you imagine the fall-out in a church for confronting (certainly putting away and having no fellowship with!) the greatly loved youth pastor who is doing a fantastic job with the youth and the youth group is growing for his coveteousness and lavish spending!? I think your average church attender would say it wasn't our business...

On the subject of the Post,
If a Brother or Sister is walking openly opposed to the Lord, (fornication, drunkenness as exampled) and glorying in the fact, or unrepentant in their sin, I believe that we should not fellowship with such a one that is so clearly indulging in sin and has no shame over it, however those who are struggling (and clearly so) with such sin, that genuinely feel remorse for their deeds, need Christian care and support to help them through, brotherly love must abound.
If the brethren in question don't care how their actions affect others and glory in their sin rather than glorying in the Lord, then I personally would choose to avoid that person (as and when it is possible) until they on the latter part be ashamed of their actions, but if that brother was so torn up by his actions and indeed the affect they had on OTHERS and needed help, well then of course by all means hold your hand out to that brother.

Bro. Steve, I like the way you worded that. Certainly is a godly picture you presented.

And please, I would like to discuss any/all aspects of this chapter not just the examples I gave. If there is something you'd like to point out or comment on or something you've taught on I Cor. 5 I'd love to hear it.

[peopleoftheway]

Great examples on the covetous brethren too. I just have never personally seen (or heard of) a brother put away for this. I am thinking of one man in particular who I certainly would label as covetous, but just because his coveteousness is more visible, how are we to judge? I guess we can only go on the fruits that we see. He is certainly a good brother in other aspects.
I see what you are saying though as to just because you covet in your Christian life here and there (as we are all wont to do at times) doesn't make it a pattern...a lifestyle. We all sin, but if there is a pattern of a particular sin then that would be a cause for concern.

But again, I have never seen this carried out except perhaps w/ fornication..

.

Sister in most cases or similar to what I presented, a simple word of admonishment from another brother should suffice, if the brother who is being admonished is truly walking right with the Lord he will praise the Lord that by God's spirit and another brother in Christ, his actions have been brought to light and hopefully been addressed and corrected, this I am sure is the case 99% of the time (May I add this is in the scenario of a Church that isn't ecumenically compromised) however in the most extreme and perverse scenario where a man that calls himself a child of God, commits such horrible sins of fornication, adultery, lasciviousness, covetous and glories in them with no repentance, no remorse AND no thought for those who are "babes in Christ" or weak in faith, then for the sake of those mentioned that offender should be asked to leave unless they STOP what is hurting the brethren directly
Sadly in most churches that are ecumenically compromised, this just isn't the case and in many, sin is openly committed IN CHURCH and not addressed or admonished because of Humanistic reasoning and philosophy.

The bottom line is, all of us that are God's Children, are forgiven for our sins, but we must one day give account of the deeds done in the flesh, we must answer for things we have done that we KNOW by God's spirit are not righteous, we have only one Judge, we must strive to follow the Lord in EVERY aspect of our daily lives, when we become consumed with the "cares of this world" and the "lusts of this world" that is when our sin may cause another brother to stumble and fall and if we don't address it ourselves then God reserves every right to address it though another brother through his Holy written word.

Romans 14:11-13 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Ecclesiastes 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

[PaulB]

Hello again Amanda / Steve – you two always have a knack of making me hunger to turn to the Scriptures because of the way in which your sincere hunger comes through your posts!

Steve – I also agree with what you have said and the manner in which you have approached the subject.

Concerning your question Amanda it is a very good one! Where does a church draw the line or how is it possible to judge between the average church member concerning their private sins?

Here are my immediate thoughts on the chapter after just studying it (following a very long day at work!)

I think that a key point of the chapter is brought to attention right in the middle of it:

V6 “Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”

What this man had done was effecting the entire assembly and in such a way that its witness would have been ruined for good the “salt” was in danger of loosing its saviour!
Our Lord Jesus Himself also warned the disciples to:

Lk.12:1 “In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.”

I believe that the danger spoken of here is the open willingness to tolerate known sin. The Corinthians were boasting in what had happened in their congregation and if it was not something that the world had knowledge of, it wasn’t far from being their public shame (thus shaming the name of the followers of Jesus Christ as a whole).

Now (like Steve just mentioned) it isn’t about someone who is struggling with a private sin, but something that will bring down the testimony of the name of the church. I believe that such an issue stems far beyond judging the private life of a fellow brother or sister, but acting swiftly in a way that sees beyond the individual and cares about the bigger picture.

And Paul takes this so seriously that he makes it clear that it is better to throw someone like that out of the church rather than to destroy its reputation as a whole.

The leaven of hypocrisy (i.e. pretence) is not to be tolerated amongst those who name the name of Jesus. Acts 5 makes this very clear, so much so that it says; V13 “And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.”

So, the way that I see it is that the church is to be more concerned about the magnification of the name of Jesus than it is about a “so-called” brother who has no concern for what he is doing to that precious name.

God bless – hope this helps

PaulB!

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Paul,

So, the way that I see it is that the church is to be more concerned about the magnification of the name of Jesus than it is about a “so-called” brother who has no concern for what he is doing to that precious name.

True, I follow your reasoning...I also think it is merciful to that brother as well because of this statement:

that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If the brother stays in fellowship with his brethren and they accept him as they do a brother who is walking upright then he is not likely to repent and theoretically would get steeped in his sin.

I personally have seen this with people in my life. It salves their conscience to have a friend that is a Christian. Like "see she'll be friends with me, so I must not be so bad".......Does that make sense?

[PaulB]

It makes a lot of sense Amanda!

I have also seen it where an act of gross immorality gets consolidated to such an extent that the brother or sister who comes along with true spiritually restoring compassion gets rejected as the legalist. Tears and emotion are not always the true sign of spiritual sorrow, they can often be the result of the person’s regret of being found out. Now in Corinth it is the case that the guy was lead to repentance as a result of Paul’s harsh rebuke (but that was for the good of the entire assembly). To be handed over to satan is quite a serious matter!

A smile, a hug or a listening ear alone aren’t always true acts of love, as these things can often be the obstacles that stops any spiritual maturity from taking place on the offender’s part and eventually result in preventing the leaven from ever getting purged out. Before you know it – the followers of Christ are suddenly found to be in the minority within their won church!

When we consider the cost of our salvation that it took Christ (who had no sin) to suffer the righteous wrath and indignation of God as the only possible way to save our souls (whilst maintaining His justice). Then this not only shows how seriously God treats sin it also shows how central to our existence (as a church) this act is. So in order to communicate the fundamental heart of the gospel message to a lost world, the integrity of the body of people who are representing that truth is of extreme importance in accomplishing this.

Many people today preach the gospel of acceptance “God loves you and has a wonderful plane for your life and accepts you just as you are” (which is partly true and yet so erroneous at the same time that it is an extremely dangerous foundation from which appeal). The first century church proclaimed a Jesus that made people appeal to God for acceptance, as many today are preaching a message where God is appealing to people for acceptance.

The truth of the matter is that people firstly need to accept Jesus as He truly is before they start making claims of adherence! It is not all about “the unaware” accepting Jesus, it is all about Jesus accepting them!

Too many today are labelling themselves as believers when in truth they don’t actually believe the truths that they claim to believe!

It is important to remember that the first century believers didn’t go around giving themselves titles – they were given them because of what they believed!

Acts.11: “….And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”

In other words they earned the name (even if it were in a disparaging way) they didn’t have to produce one for themselves!

Now, no believer (or any, as a matter of fact) is perfect, but I do believe that we are the evidence of what we believe. When a “little leaven” is spotted by “those who are spiritual” it is an act of love to restore such a one, firstly because of Christ’s love for them and secondly because of the testimony of the rest of those who may be tarnished by their wanderings.

But if a brother is exposed to be false by the world then that does more damage than can possibly be imagined. For instance when you look at some of the tele evangelists that have been exposed by the media as frauds or adulterers how quick are the world to jump on us when they hear of it?

The testimony of the church is vital to the success of its mission. People are not fools, they know the genuine article when they see it, and even if they reject it they do so knowing that they don’t want it. And those who accept it can rest assured that they've found it!


God bless

PaulB