[pbiwolski]

Tony is on to the correct answer of the OP's question. The division made between the teachings of Paul and Christ is crucial.

The command to hate as given by Christ was to those who were to take up their crosses and follow him - no matter what.

Luke 14:26-27
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Read the verses carefully, there's alot of conditions given. The context is absolutely who will be Christ's disciples and who will not. It's not a statement of "I need disciples", but rather, "the road ahead is going to get rough, any takers?"

Later in Luke he gives the same men another exhortation. It is important to notice the strong tribulation context in the chapter (before and after the verses quoted below). It shows you Christ is "fitting" his men for the worst, and giving them doctrine for their salvation as well.

Luke 21:16-19
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.

Notice the word "patience" directed to the disciples possessing their souls. If you want to do some studying on this, run the word in the latter books of the NT. Patience is a "must have" during the tribulation.

Back to the topic, the command in Luke 14 is a prerequisite to following Christ to the death. Luke 21 compliments the earlier command with the charge of "you will be put to death" with consent of those very family members, friends, etc.

Someone said the command to hate is comparative. This would line up with an OT passage in Gen. 29:30-31:

And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

So the "hate" is actually in comparison to the larger amount of love given to another.

I would say this is a good answer to the OP, yet I'm certain Christ had something else in mind (future) when he called his disciples with such conditions.

Finally, you and I are NOT Christ's disciples preparing to endure through a furious tribulation. We are not hated of all men for his name's sake etc. and the direct command does not apply to us.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Tony is on to the correct answer of the OP's question. The division made between the teachings of Paul and Christ is crucial.

The command to hate as given by Christ was to those who were to take up their crosses and follow him - no matter what.

Luke 14:26-27
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Read the verses carefully, there's alot of conditions given. The context is absolutely who will be Christ's disciples and who will not. It's not a statement of "I need disciples", but rather, "the road ahead is going to get rough, any takers?"

Later in Luke he gives the same men another exhortation. It is important to notice the strong tribulation context in the chapter (before and after the verses quoted below). It shows you Christ is "fitting" his men for the worst, and giving them doctrine for their salvation as well.

Luke 21:16-19
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.

Notice the word "patience" directed to the disciples possessing their souls. If you want to do some studying on this, run the word in the latter books of the NT. Patience is a "must have" during the tribulation.

Back to the topic, the command in Luke 14 is a prerequisite to following Christ to the death. Luke 21 compliments the earlier command with the charge of "you will be put to death" with consent of those very family members, friends, etc.

Someone said the command to hate is comparative. This would line up with an OT passage in Gen. 29:30-31:

And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

So the "hate" is actually in comparison to the larger amount of love given to another.

I would say this is a good answer to the OP, yet I'm certain Christ had something else in mind (future) when he called his disciples with such conditions.

Finally, you and I are NOT Christ's disciples preparing to endure through a furious tribulation. We are not hated of all men for his name's sake etc. and the direct command does not apply to us.

Luke 14:25-26 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Interesting…so is this command limited in application specifically to the “great multitude with him” whom had an opportunity to become His disciple and no application can be made to us today? The words “any man come to me” refer to whom? Do they only refer to any man who was in that specific multitude? Or are we [today] also a disciple of Christ through belief in Him, and therefore, should follow Him even if it calls for “hating” father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also? Is there an application to be made for us today? If so, what is it?

It is obvious from my posts on this Forum that I’m always driven by the practical application of Holy Scripture for believers today and if an application can be made without changing or corrupting God’s word I try to faithfully do that.

Personally, I believe my specific call at this point in my life is to edify the body of Christ by directing them to know, love, and follow Him. I never want to make an application that twists, bends, changes, or altars God’s word in order to do that. It’s encouraging to me that the Bible believing participants on this Forum have their own God given gift and style of teaching. I’ve benefited greatly.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Luke 14:25-26 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Interesting…so is this command limited in application specifically to the “great multitude with him” whom had an opportunity to become His disciple and no application can be made to us today? The words “any man come to me” refer to whom? Do they only refer to any man who was in that specific multitude? Or are we [today] also a disciple of Christ through belief in Him, and therefore, should follow Him even if it calls for “hating” father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also? Is there an application to be made for us today? If so, what is it?

It is obvious from my posts on this Forum that I’m always driven by the practical application of Holy Scripture for believers today and if an application can be made without changing or corrupting God’s word I try to faithfully do that.

Personally, I believe my specific call at this point in my life is to edify the body of Christ by directing them to know, love, and follow Him. I never want to make an application that twists, bends, changes, or altars God’s word in order to do that. It’s encouraging to me that the Bible believing participants on this Forum have their own God given gift and style of teaching. I’ve benefited greatly.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Forrest, the gist of my response is that do we follow Christ's message strictly to Israel during His earthly ministry to them("times past") or do we follow His meesage to us today("but now") through Paul? The greatest confusion among Christianity today, let alone many of us on this forum, is trying to wad the two messages together as applicable for today. That's what every Catholic on the planet is taught to do and the confusion is why so few of them pay any attention to the Scriptures. With right division you get sound doctrine, without right division you get Roman Catholicism..

The doctrine of Christ dying, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty is found right in Genesis 3, in the innocent animals dying to "cover" Adam and Eve. There is doctrine in Leviticus 5, but where do I take my sin offering if it's applicable for today? Same with Luke 14. I'm not commanded to "hate" anything today, nor am I to turn on my family as a Christian. They will turn on you. The context and application of Luke 14 is disparate people on the verge of desperate times. Yes, I am saved and love Christ, He lives in me, I am in no manner to abandon a sick wife and run off to the Congo to fulfill the "Great Commission".

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Forrest, the gist of my response is that do we follow Christ's message strictly to Israel during His earthly ministry to them("times past") or do we follow His meesage to us today("but now") through Paul? The greatest confusion among Christianity today, let alone many of us on this forum, is trying to wad the two messages together as applicable for today. That's what every Catholic on the planet is taught to do and the confusion is why so few of them pay any attention to the Scriptures. With right division you get sound doctrine, without right division you get Roman Catholicism..

The doctrine of Christ dying, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty is found right in Genesis 3, in the innocent animals dying to "cover" Adam and Eve. There is doctrine in Leviticus 5, but where do I take my sin offering if it's applicable for today? Same with Luke 14. I'm not commanded to "hate" anything today, nor am I to turn on my family as a Christian. They will turn on you. The context and application of Luke 14 is disparate people on the verge of desperate times. Yes, I am saved and love Christ, He lives in me, I am in no manner to abandon a sick wife and run off to the Congo to fulfill the "Great Commission".

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Greetings brother Tony. No doubt and I'm with you on your above thoughts. I loathe harmonizing when we should divide.

Do you think Jesus was actually telling the multitude that the requirement to be His disciple was to HATE his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also? If not, what is He teaching them?

[Fredoheaven]

Thanks to all of you who positively responded to this thread. I am learning...thanks to Bro. Parrish, Bro. Forrest, Ma'am Greenbear, pbiwolski, to Sir Chette, Sir Brandon and to Bro. Tony. love and I'll be glad to share it with you all. God bless...

Thanks,

Grace, mercy and peace...

Bro. FredLLangit

My pleasure Fred, may God grant us all His wisdom as we seek His truth on difficult passages.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by Forrest

It is obvious from my posts on this Forum that I’m always driven by the practical application of Holy Scripture for believers today and if an application can be made without changing or corrupting God’s word I try to faithfully do that.

That's a good idea. A better one is to understand the literal application before making the practical. You'll not be tempted to misapply something when the first things are first.

Everyone preaches on "taking up your cross" and "counting the cost" from Luke 14. That's good preaching when applied spiritually to believers today. There's really no question about that. The problem was the word "hate", and I believe that a sound Bible answers to that question have been given sufficiently by now.

[chette777]

So True PBI

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

That's a good idea. A better one is to understand the literal application before making the practical. You'll not be tempted to misapply something when the first things are first.

Everyone preaches on "taking up your cross" and "counting the cost" from Luke 14. That's good preaching when applied spiritually to believers today. There's really no question about that. The problem was the word "hate", and I believe that a sound Bible answers to that question have been given sufficiently by now.

My friend, consider:

Ro 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The OT is holy Scripture as much as any other. I've made a study of Lev. 5, though it does not apply to me(Christ is our sin offering)there is much of a spiritual nature to be learned, as I just cited. What is a sin offering? We must first know what it is, then we can see that now Jesus Christ has been offered up as our sin offering.

Another good set of passages to study, with application to disobeying the authority of God, which is found in the Scriptures:

Jud 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Jud 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

This is why we have over 200 "versions of the "bible" in English, and we have several for particular sects of heresy:

NWT- Watchtower
Concordant Literal Version- Unitarian Universalists
New Century Version- Church Of Christ

Hey, go to Burger King, order a bun with nothing between it, that's what you want, they'll sell it to you. Their motto: Have It Your Way. We have Burger Kings Jesus, Burger King "bibles". I've seen Gloria Copeland on TV, with 5 "versions" on a podium, she cherry-picked the version that supported what she wanted to say.

I've not made a study of the spiritual significance of Luke 14, only that I am commanded to "hate" no one.

Grace and peace

Tony

[pbiwolski]

I'm confused why that post was directed to me.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

I've not made a study of the spiritual significance of Luke 14, only that I am commanded to "hate" no one.

...and I backed you up on that.