[Diligent]

Originally Posted by drbible1611

I will post my thoughts on this thread instead of the other one I started because it was Dr Ruckman's position on abortion that pricked my interest.

1. IS ABORTION MURDER?

If abortion is indeed murder because a person becomes a LIVING SOUL at CONCEPTION then may I suggest that any woman that uses contraception, other than a barrier method, is a MURDERER.

Oral contraceptives do not simply prevent the release of an egg from the ovary but also alter the lining of the womb so that implantation of the embryo CANNOT occur and the embryo 'dies'.

Likewise an Intrauterine Device (IUD) prevents implantation of an embryo.

So I don't believe that a person becomes a LIVING SOUL at conception. At conception there is POTENTIAL LIFE-all of the 'ingredients' for the want of a better word are not present-YET!

Wow -- look at your steps of reasoning up there. You are saying you don't believe there is the living soul at conception because ("so...") someone might have to re-examine their use of certain types of birth control!?

In fact I totally agree -- people shouldn't use methods of birth control that can cause abortions! I'm not going to redefine an unborn child as an unborn "whatever" just because it might inconvenience someone!

You find me one instance of the word "conception" or "conceive" (any word form) in the Bible that indicates that the life is anything other than a person, and we'll have something to debate.

Look at this:

Genesis 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

The conception was a fulfillment of God's promise! (If not, why mention it?) They didn't wait around to see if the "ingredients" would become a fully-baked boy to see if God fulfilled his promise to Abraham! Can you just imagine Sarah and Abraham waiting around to see if her pregnancy would be successful before rejoicing in the coming of their new child?

[atlas]

Dr.,


You are just about as far off base as Dr. Ruckman on this issue my friend. I'm not trying to offend you my friend. You may want study some of the post on the life issue on the other topic. Bro. Diligent, Bro. Luke, I and others have made some pretty good post about this issue my friend.

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609


Atlas

[atlas]

Diligent,

And another thing...

Where is life? Is it in the "air" or is it in the blood?

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

Amen Bro. Diligent. We use or Moms blood in the womb to bring us life, via food, air water and other needed ingredients by babies in the mothers womb. What our mothers eat, breath and drink helps develop us in her womb. Eve was the mother of all living and our mothers feed us even before birth. It may not be in the same way as born babies are fed. Our mothers feed us from what their bodies have obtained via what they have ate, drunk and breathed. This is why the expecting mother needs to watch what they eat, drink and should not smoke and use some types of drugs while with child. What they put into their body will effect the child.


Atlas

[drbible1611]

Originally Posted by atlas

Dr.,


You are just about as far off base as Dr. Ruckman on this issue my friend. I'm not trying to offend you my friend. You may want study some of the post on the life issue on the other topic. Bro. Diligent, Bro. Luke, I and others have made some pretty good post about this issue my friend.

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609


Atlas

No offence taken.

I have learned over the years to be hard-skinned.

Please read my posts carefully right up to my conclusion.

[drbible1611]

Dilligent,

This very verse calls it a "work of God." Who are we to interrupt this work of God at any stage when the work is clearly began?

I don't disagree with you-read my conclusion.

However, I believe Scripture teaches that early on in gestation the baby is not a LIVING SOUL and on this occasion science/medicine appears to concur with what God said in Ezekiel 37.

So sorry to jump in the middle like this without reading the entire list of posts. With that said let me say that if this has been covered, then please disregard it.

A poster intimated that every form of contraceptive that in some way or other causes the fertilized cell-pair, or blastula if it has proceeded that far in its cell division, is abortion and therefore murder. These forms of contrceptives include the IUD (intra-uterine device), the "pill", the diaphragm, etc. These forms are murder because they are forcing a living human soul to be discarded and flushed out. Kudos to this poster. I totally and 100% agree.

Here's the kicker::::::

EVERY (!!!!!!!!!!!) form of contraceptive that precludes the implantation of fertilized cell-pair or blastula can and will cause harm to the mother::::::::

***The "pill" has caused more than one potential mother to develop complications and die.

***Both the IUD and the diapraghm have caused perforations in the uterus of some women that caused their death.

Please do not chalk it up to coincidence that these and only these methods have caused complications in women. There have never been side effects from the condom or the rhythm method. Very clearly these adverse occurrences are the judgements of God. God hates it when little babies are murdered.

[drbible1611]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Wow -- look at your steps of reasoning up there. You are saying you don't believe there is the living soul at conception because ("so...") someone might have to re-examine their use of certain types of birth control!?

In fact I totally agree -- people shouldn't use methods of birth control that can cause abortions! I'm not going to redefine an unborn child as an unborn "whatever" just because it might inconvenience someone!

You find me one instance of the word "conception" or "conceive" (any word form) in the Bible that indicates that the life is anything other than a person, and we'll have something to debate.

Look at this:

Genesis 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

The conception was a fulfillment of God's promise! (If not, why mention it?) They didn't wait around to see if the "ingredients" would become a fully-baked boy to see if God fulfilled his promise to Abraham! Can you just imagine Sarah and Abraham waiting around to see if her pregnancy would be successful before rejoicing in the coming of their new child?

I wish you had waited until I had finished completing my posts before commenting.

This is why I wrote...to be cont.

The debate is when does a person become a LIVING SOUL. Yes Sarah CONCEIVED but it wasn't until 9 months later that she gave Abraham a LIVING SOUL.

I don't understand your point about the rejoicing-what does that prove one way or another?

May I suggest that a woman who has been raped and ends up conceiving is most UNLIKELY to be rejoicing