[Biblestudent]

Some consider the Berean Bible Society as "ultra-dispensationalist" or "hyper-dispensationalist" for not believing in water baptism and/or Lord's supper for this age. It seems that the "Bereans" failed to see the difference between the baptism as given to the twelve from the baptism as given to Paul, nor did they see the distinction between the Lord's supper as given to Israel through the Twelve and the Lord's supper as given to the Church (Body of Christ) through Paul.

[Easy E]

It seems that the "Bereans" failed to see the difference between the baptism as given to the twelve from the baptism as given to Paul, nor did they see the distinction between the Lord's supper as given to Israel through the Twelve and the Lord's supper as given to the Church (Body of Christ) through Paul.

Biblestudent,

Would you mind explaining this statement, brother?

Stuff like this has always been hard for me to understand. Especially the part about the Lord's supper. I think I have a pretty good handle on baptism but a refresher will always help.

Thanks.

[Biblestudent]

Brother Easy E,

Some "dispensationalists" believe that Water Baptism is an Old Testament Jewish practice that should not be practiced during the Church Age. Others believe that the Lord's Supper is also a Jewish ordinance that is abolished on the cross.

However, I see in Scripture that Water Baptism and the Lord's Supper as given by Christ to Israel, through the Twelve, before the cross have a different purpose and meaning than that which were given by Christ to the Church, through Paul, after the ascension. There are ordinances that are given to us, which are NOT "contrary" or "against us" (Col. 2:14)

WATER BAPTISM as given before the cross and preached by the Twelve to Israel before and after the cross:
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

WATER BAPTISM as received and practiced by Paul and delivered to the church:
Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul DID baptize, but he was not sent to baptize, as John the Baptist and the Twelve were sent to baptize. Mr. 1:4; Mt 28:18-20. The gospel preached by John the Baptist and the Twelve did include baptism, Mr 1:4; Mr 16:16; Ac 2:38; but Paul's preaching does not include it 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1:17. Paul, however, gave water baptism as one of the local church "ordinances" (1 Cor. 11:2).

The LORD'S SUPPER in Matthew 26 pictures the Millennium (FUTURE):
Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

The LORD'S SUPPER in 1 Corinthians 11 pictures Christ's death (PAST):

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Notice again that Paul emphasizes that these are ordinances he received from the Lord Jesus Christ to be given to the Church:

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

I pray this helps!

[Greektim]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Some "dispensationalists" believe that Water Baptism is an Old Testament Jewish practice that should not be practiced during the Church Age.

This is not a true statement. THat is not a teaching maintained by any dispensationalist (which may be why you put it in quotation marks). That is a ultra/hyper-dispensational teaching. Those are not to be confused. We need to be clear. Brother Tim keeps hearing about all these variations in the system of Dispensationalism primarily b/c the variations are not dispensational at all.

[Easy E]

That is Biblestudent's point. These people call themselves "dispensationalists" when, in fact, they are not. They have taken proper division past its logical conclusion and have created an entirely different animal.

[Biblestudent]

Thanks, Easy E. That's why I enclosed it with quotation marks ("dispensationalists"). I tried to avoid just calling anybody "hyper" (although I believe they are), for sometimes anybody can just accuse anybody as a "hyper" if one seems to be more "dispensational" than he is.

[Stvvv1611]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

Brother Easy E,

WATER BAPTISM as received and practiced by Paul and delivered to the church:
Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul DID baptize, but he was not sent to baptize, as John the Baptist and the Twelve were sent to baptize. Mr. 1:4; Mt 28:18-20. The gospel preached by John the Baptist and the Twelve did include baptism, Mr 1:4; Mr 16:16; Ac 2:38; but Paul's preaching does not include it 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1:17. Paul, however, gave water baptism as one of the local church "ordinances" (1 Cor. 11:2).
[COLOR="Blue"][B]

Hello brother Biblestudent,

It is virtually impossible to keep up with all the threads and posts on this forum! My time for such is very limited, but occasionally I’ll hurriedly pop in and out on some of the threads that catch my attention and such was the case when spotting your response to Luke and Easy E concerning understanding dispensations. On top of being delighted to have found such a web site in support of the KJV, I’m tickled to see so many in this forum that sees Pauline distinction… such as in your case. Obviously, there will be differences even among those that see the uniqueness of Paul’s ministry and message.

Our positions are very similar on Paul. In fact I will say that they were identical at one time, but with just a little variation today. I have some questions concerning your position that baptism with water is yet an ordinance today.

For argument sake… let’s say that baptism is an ordinance today. I am very curious as to what you do in your church in regards to administering this ordinance. I’ve been around long enough to know why something is done in view of what is done, but since your position is different, from most, in that you thoroughly understand the fact that others were sent and Paul was not and yet he did baptize with water, I can then only guess at what you practice.

I hope you don’t mind me asking these questions and am sure that others coming across this thread will benefit from the fact they too may need to understand any difference between those who were sent to baptize from he who wasn’t and yet still did and what are any distinctions. Hope that last sentence made sense.

Since I’m looking for ‘what’ and not ‘why’ your response to each question can be short; perhaps most of them in a word. Maybe after your response I will have a ‘why’ question.

1. Who in your church administers this ordinance? I’m looking for an office here if applicable.

2. Do you administer this ordinance immediately upon one’s profession of faith?

3. Which baptismal ‘formula’ (in whose name) do you administer this ordinance?

4. How (mode) do you administer this ordinance?

5. Do you require this ordinance for your church membership?

6. Do you accept another professing Christian into membership regardless of how (mode) they were baptized and what denomination they come from?

Thanks brother!

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

PS Oh… I may have some fun with you on Paul ‘re-baptizing’ in Acts 19

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Stvvv1611

1. Who in your church administers this ordinance? I’m looking for an office here if applicable.

2. Do you administer this ordinance immediately upon one’s profession of faith?

3. Which baptismal ‘formula’ (in whose name) do you administer this ordinance?

4. How (mode) do you administer this ordinance?

5. Do you require this ordinance for your church membership?

6. Do you accept another professing Christian into membership regardless of how (mode) they were baptized and what denomination they come from?

1. In my church, the pastor administers the ordinance.
2. We administer this ordinance after a person is saved and is willing to be baptized.
3. We baptize in the "name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". Others baptize in the "name of Jesus".
4. We baptize by immersion.
5. We require this ordinance for church membership.
6. If they understood salvation before they were baptized by immersion, we accept them into membership.

[George]

Originally Posted by Luke

Hi,

I am quite confused. On the one hand, I have never really taken a serious study of the Bible (but I am enrolling in TBDI as soon as my text books arrive. Ordered them two weeks ago ), but on the other hand, I have gradually moved towards the position held by dispensationalists.

I am inclined to believe that Jesus gospel and Paul's gospel are different. Not in all aspects, but in it's purpose. Jesus Gospel was of righteousness in regards to the Kingdom coming. Paul's Gospel was of imputed righteousness by Christ's death burial and resurrection. There are similarities between the two, and the Gospel of John is almost Pauline in doctrine.

So my question is this, and it may seem ignorant, so please forgive me:

If the gospel of the Grace of God (Paul by revelation of Jesus Christ) and the Gospel of the Kingdom (Jesus Christ & John the Baptist) are different, how exactly?

If they are not, how does one reconcile a works based Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, with a faith without works based Gospel of the Grace of God?

I cannot understand "reformed" theology (including amillennialism & calvinism), because there seem to be too many contradictions within scripture.

Aloha brother Luke,

I've been reluctant to recommend brother Ruckman's works, because he is so often misunderstood, and I don't want to be Labeled a "Ruckmanite", but in this case I have to make an exception, and do so because I do not think that you could find a better book to explain "Dispensations" than Dr. Peter Ruckman's "How to Teach Dispensational Truth".

The Book is only 87 pages long, so it is not a deep "treatise" on Dispensational Truth, instead it is more of an "outline" for further study (with literally hundreds of sources sited). Here is the "Table Of Contents":

Preface
Backgrounds of "Dispensationalism"
What is "Dispensationalism"?
Locating the Time Periods
Noting Exceptions to the Rule
Examining the Covenants
A major Dispensation
The New Testament in His Blood
Salvation in the Great Tribulation
The Second Part of the New Testament
Dispensational Outlines

The following Quote comes from the "Preface":

"IN this work, you will see why "rightly dividing the word of truth" is the proper method of studying the Holy Scriptures. We call this type of study an attempt to grasp "dispensational Truth" - the truths that apply to DIFFERENT dispensations in the Bible. "Differences" divide people. Differences put division between people and things. Thus "differences" divide scriptural passages (and sometimes verses, and even sentences) into separate, segregated units. It is a negative operation. It is the operation given to us by the Holy Spirit, in the King James Authorized Version (any edition, from 1611 o 1980), and found in not other English Bible in the world, including the NEW KJV.

In this book brother Ruckman names at least a couple dozen men who taught about "dispensations" long before Darby, Scofield, and Clarence Larkin (probably the best of them all) came along.

Here is one more Quote from Chapter Two ("What Is a Dispensation?"):

The Greek word, for this english word, is "oikonomia", and it doesn't mean a "period of time" at all; it means "the laws by, which a household is operated, or the way the master of a house arranges his household." Our word "ecumenical" comes from this word. Still, this word has been used, ever since 1700, to mean "a period of time." This, of course, is due to the fact that as Master of the house (Hebrews 3:2; Ephesians 2:19), God sets up different ways of running His "family" at different times, according to His Own Wisdom. TIME BRACKETS show up where alterations in method and protocaol take place. Clarence Larkin's Dispensational Truth is the real grand-daddy of all the work done since 1929. It is a superb, scriptural work; but, in constructing the charts, the time element is very conspicuous; it has to be. The law was given at a certain time, in a certain place. Christ died on the cross at a certain time, in a certain place, etc. Larkin's charts are well done; they are excellently drawn, and everything in them, that is true, scripturally, can be found in ANY edition of a King James Bible. No knowledge of Greek or Hebrew is necessary to understand one "dispensational" teaching in the entire book of over four hundred pages. Before Larkin (Scofield, 1909, for example), a number of dispensations were listed and commented on with several hundred scriptural cross references (see p. 6).

I do not think that you could go wrong if you could obtain this book and read it. "Dispensationalism" is a very controversial and often mis-understood subject and brother Ruckman does a superb job separating all of the "competing" ideas concerning this doctrine; such as, defining "hyper-dispensationalism" or "ultra-dispensationalism", of which brother Ruckman is often accused of believing and/or promoting, but which he certainly does not.

I hope this may be of some help to you - and perhaps you will understand why I have been so late in replying to your question.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by George

I do not think that you could go wrong if you could obtain this book and read it. "Dispensationalism" is a very controversial and often mis-understood subject and brother Ruckman does a superb job separating all of the "competing" ideas concerning this doctrine; such as, defining "hyper-dispensationalism" or "ultra-dispensationalism", of which brother Ruckman is often accused of believing and/or promoting, but which he certainly does not.

Hyper-dispensationalist: someone who divides more than the other guy.