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#1
05-30-2009, 07:10 PM
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Greenbear
That sounds nice, but my Bible says ONCE in Hebrews 9:27. So to me, the Bible does indeed say you only die once (the 1st death) and then the judgement. The Bible does indeed mention the number of times you die. The definition for "once" in this verse is: 1) once, one time 2) once for all Seems pretty clear and simple to me. |
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#2
05-30-2009, 11:18 PM
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That sounds nice, too, except that some people die twice and some don't die at all. How do you account for that? Lazarus didn't die the second death even though he died twice because the second death is the lake of fire. i struggled with this for years and this is the only way I can reconcile it. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see what the alternative would be. Jen |
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#3
05-31-2009, 01:02 PM
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Grace and peace Tony |
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#4
06-07-2009, 11:58 AM
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grace and peace, Jennifer |
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#5
06-08-2009, 01:08 AM
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grace and peace Tony |
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#6
06-20-2009, 10:52 PM
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here is my view.
It is either two totally unknown Jewish believers in Christ who will be revealed during that time. or it is Enoch of Gen5:24 and Elijah. Neither Enoch or Elijah died. And the scriptures tell us that it is appointed for every man to DIE ONCE then face judgement. Will Moses or John be risen to die again? Remember it can not violate Gods finished complete inspired inerrant preserved word of God. also remember a glorified body can not face destruction or corruption it is free from that. the two witness have their head cut off that is destruction and they die. Corruption by Jewish standards starts as early as 3 1/2 to 4 days after death hence the reason God did not leave Christ in the grave and raised him on the third day and fulfill the scripture that his holy one would not see corruption. Also Rev 11:11 And AFTER three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. were their heads on their bodies when they stood up? We are not told? headless bodies standing up would answer why so many feared them. Moses nor any righteous OT saint have glorified bodies yet. they have to face the GWT judgement of all the dead and enter the New Jerusalem to eat of the tree of life and drink of the rivers of the water of life. that is why we read for Israel that some are raised to everlasting glory and some to everlasting destruction in the last day. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Last edited by chette777; 06-20-2009 at 11:10 PM. |
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#7
06-21-2009, 03:47 PM
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Enoch: The Man Who Will Never Die
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Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? Why are you denying the power of God to raise from the dead? Because that's exactly what you do when you park at Hebrews 9 and say "...absolutely no way, the Bible says it..." Lazarus died twice. The young girl in Luke 8 died twice. Eutychius in Acts 20 died twice. "It's appointed unto men once to die..." and then Christ tells the Apostles and disciples: Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Jesus told John's disciples: Mt 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. All these people were dead and raised to life to die again. One death plus one death equals two deaths. Why did God write Hebrews 9:27 and then raise certain people to life, why is Elijah coming back to earth to die the first time and Moses the second time, since we've seen certain selected people died twice? John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? Are you going to allow God to glorify himself or stick with a private interpretation? Enoch cannot be the second witness for three reasons: 1. Enoch is a Gentile, not a Jew. Enoch did not receive the sign of the covenant(circumcision), there were no Jews until Abraham. 2. There are no records in Scripture Enoch ever performed any of the following: Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Only two men fit this description: Elijah for the first, and Moses is the second witness. Read Exodus 7:17 to Exodus 12:33. Read the book of Revelation, read the plagues in Revelation and see that the plagues that will smite the earth are the same plagues that smote Egypt in Exodus 7-12. 3. Enoch cannot die. Not now or ever. Enoch already has a glorified body: Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There are people who will be alive at the Calling out of the Church from the world who will never die, just like Enoch. That is why I said that Enoch is a Bible type of those saints alive at the "Rapture". Enoch never died and never will, there are possibly people alive today who will never die. How is I Thess. 4:16 reconciled with Hebrews 9:27? Can you answer that question or are you going to blow me off to Ruckman and Harry Ironside's private interpretations as Bro. Parrish did? Chette, the reason I have not been active in the forum for the last couple weeks is two reasons: The forum is becoming like FFF: Contentious name-callers is the first reason. The second reason is I used to spend a lot of time writing messages and responding to messages that are read, and not studied, and if studied not believed. At one time I instructed a Sunday School Bible study of 16 kids aged 8-12 in Isaiah 28:9-13 and was asked, can we use a concordance? I said most definitely, that's why concordances were made. I gave them 3 questions to study: 1. What was the "star" of Bethlehem 2. Who is the anti-Christ? 3 Who are the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11? I got these answers: 1. An angel 2. Judas Iscariot 3. Moses and Elijah Why is it children can get what grown adults either can't or won't? Jud 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Brother, I can't come and read, study, and believe your Bible for you. You have to set the private interpretations of others and yourself aside before God will give you understanding in anything. Now, you are free(until Islam takes your country and mine)to believe what you wish. Grace and peace to you brother Chette. Tony Last edited by tonybones2112; 06-21-2009 at 03:55 PM. Reason: typo |
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#8
06-21-2009, 06:36 PM
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actually I was more interested in the 5 cherub that Satan was in charge of?
but as far as translated so Enoch would not see death according as stated in hebrews. does not indicate he received a glorified body. or that he will not return and see death at another time. It is clear the death he did not see was that of the flood that is in the context of Hebrews and Genesis 5. and yes I believe people will be translated just like Enoch (no details on how God took him in Genesis 5) or Elijah. so it is not an issue of a rapture either. Also it is not an issue of God being able to raise the dead. I believe he has and will again. I never said I didn't believe God would raise the dead as you accused me of. as a matter of fact I stated that he would raise the dead and the two witnesses. we are told in 1 Cor that only the body of Christ dead or alive will be raised into glorified bodies. this however may not be the case with Enoch or Elijah. and most definitely is not the case with any dead OT Saint. where in Scriptures does it say clearly that Enoch got a glorified body? how could you tie in Enoch to 1 Corinthians he never believed on Christ as Saviour and that Christ dies for his sins, nor is he a member of the Body of Christ. someone could take your statements as a private interpretation. God is dealing with two types of people during the Great Tribulation mainly Israel but also the Gentile nations. both these are clear in scriptures. so what so difficult for God to use Enoch as a witness not just to Jews but to Gentiles? Why two witnesses? why no just one? 144,000 had already been running around witnessing too. And so what the plagues are like the ones God preformed through Moses that doesn't mean it is Moses. God is the one who will be performing the feats through the two. it is not the man it is the God the men serve that does the plagues and feats. the second death is not the type of Physical death we experience today. Death in the Lake of fire where Death and hell shall be cast into, tells us the second death is not like the first. you confuse them to make a person dying twice in a mortal fleshly fashion. someone might take that as a private interpretation. sorry I don't read Ironside and as far as Ruckman I take his words with caution as well. I have found some of his stuff off as well. children give answers to what they have been taught. but those same children dont study to see what they are taught are true but we were talking about the two witnesses. and you made mention about Satan being a supreme being and overlord of 5 cherubs. I was just wondering where in the Bible is says that about Satan? |
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#9
06-21-2009, 08:07 PM
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Brother Chette, you might consider the fact that Elijah and Moses have been prophesied by Malachi and foreshadowed in Matthew to signal the Lord's Second Coming.
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#10
06-22-2009, 12:10 AM
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Malachi could of been prophesying of Elijah who is to come was John the Baptist and Jesus said so. Mt 11:7-14 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
And as for Moses - a prophet like him was Jesus you see Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. I could not find in Malachi that he prophesied of Moses return. which verse is that? Now it may be a two part prophecy of which we agree to that understanding. but does it have to be the actually Elijah and Moses? the previous verses state no it does not. I made my conclusion based on the scriptures that it was appointed for and to die once than face judgement. What Tbones forgot is that Christians are already dead in Christ and our Judgement is already done one the cross. so our rapture fits as we are all dead in Christ. 2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: |
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