[Cloudwalker]

Originally Posted by larryb

“Let it be remembered, that the vulgar copy we use, was the public possession of many generations; that upon the invention of printing, it was in actual authority throughout the world, with them that used and understood that language….men may, if they please, take pains to inform the world, wherein such and such copies are corrupted or mistaken, but to impose their known failings on us as various lections, is of course not to be approved….[t]he generality of learned men among Protestants are not yet infected with this leaven…And if this change of judgment which hath been long insinuating itself, by the curiosity and boldness of critics, should break in also on the Protestant world, and be avowed in public works, it is easy to conjecture what the end will be. We went from Rome under the conduct of the purity of the originals, I wish none have a mind to return thither again, under the pretence of their corruption.” John Owen, Of the Integrity and Purity of the Hebrew and Greek Text of the Scripture, pg 473 to 477

I'm sorry but this is one of the reasons why I absolutely reject and detest Calvinism...They hold the writings of the reformers as inspired and infallible and also...they exalt these men to the point of worship...Augustine, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, James White and on and on it goes.

No offense Larry but you obviously have an agenda here and that's to spread your reformed theology...but I call it a doctrine of devils, I'm not buying what you're selling, thanks anyways, I'll stick with the word of God and not man's opinion and interpretation.

It's quite scary.

[PaulB]

Hi Larry, Thanks for your post.

As I see it, history plays a major part in the way we come to our conclusions, but we can’t form those conclusions at the expense of what was destined to follow (the history that followed afterwards). Whether it be the past, the present or the future they are all sections of God’s eternal plan to speak to the hearts of common day folk. The Waldensians, Tyndale and onwards fought for and preserved the sacred text which finally found its universal form in the KJB (after which was nothing).

If we don’t have the perfectly preserved word of God today in 2009 then no one at any time has ever had them, but if we do have them (as we KJB believers affirm) then we’ve always had them. Only the KJB camp uphold this belief, every other camp has to find a compromise at some point in their profession. The truth of the matter is that God has kept His promise and this forum testifies to the reality of that. It isn’t about underlying manuscripts (i.e. museum preservation) but the word of God in the hands of those who believe it to be what it claims to be.

God bless

PaulB

[Jassy]

Originally Posted by PaulB

Hi Larry, Thanks for your post.

As I see it, history plays a major part in the way we come to our conclusions, but we can’t form those conclusions at the expense of what was destined to follow (the history that followed afterwards). Whether it be the past, the present or the future they are all sections of God’s eternal plan to speak to the hearts of common day folk. The Waldensians, Tyndale and onwards fought for and preserved the sacred text which finally found its universal form in the KJB (after which was nothing).

If we don’t have the perfectly preserved word of God today in 2009 then no one at any time has ever had them, but if we do have them (as we KJB believers affirm) then we’ve always had them. Only the KJB camp uphold this belief, every other camp has to find a compromise at some point in their profession. The truth of the matter is that God has kept His promise and this forum testifies to the reality of that. It isn’t about underlying manuscripts (i.e. museum preservation) but the word of God in the hands of those who believe it to be what it claims to be.
God bless

PaulB

[Emphasis above mine...]
Amen brother PaulB! I agree with you. We HAVE the TRUE Word of God, infallable, and in our hands, here in 2009. I believe that with all of my heart, because I believe in God, and He does what He says He will do!! And, OH!! How BLESSED we are to have God's Word. I will always praise Him and give GLORY to Him for inspiring and preserving His Word for us. What a JOY it is to read the beautiful KJ Bible!

Jassy

[PaulB]

Thanks for your comments Jassy

There is nothing that brings me greater pleasure than for someone to glorify God for what He has said and done. If I write an article or a response to another article and that ends up with God being praised for His wonders and His goodness then I feel like jumping over the moon!

At times the virtual memory on my pc runs too low and when I’m typing out something for the forum a letter or sometimes a word goes missing (which makes my English look poor). But the responses that I get give me the confidence that the general gist of what I am saying is coming across.
I have downloaded something called “Memstat” that seems to be helping a little.

The way I see it is just like I said on the previous post and history bears witness to the fact that the word of God has always been in existence or that it never was in existence at all.
Only God’s enemies are the ones who have argued against this up until the birth of the “science” of textual criticism came along in the 1800s. And as a result of this newly developed “science” (the product and trophy of unsaved philosophers), a believer is reckoned to be an unlearned fool voicing from ignorance if they adhere to the doctrine that the body of Christ has always held to (i.e. the preservation of sacred Scripture).

If we don’t have the preserved words of God today then my question is – at what point in history did the church surrender such a fundamental element to its existence? – how did the entire church (that was spreading around the earth manage to lose them all at once in such a collective way?)
I can understand that the enemies of the gospel may have burned some of them (like they did in the reformation) – but why even do that if they had already gone missing before the dark ages?

Now, if they hadn’t gone missing before that time then the people who died for them must have possessed them otherwise they wouldn’t have laid down their lives so that we could possess what they knew to be corrupt! And if the church (not only had them) but lived by them for guidance (and to put their enemies to flight) during the reformation then there is no argument that those Scriptures are still in our hands today which is exactly what we believe is present in the KJB.

The only thing that has happened is that an unholy counterpart has been developed and established to oppose the position of those whose foundation is contrary to those who wish to rule the hearts and minds of the populous. This is not just a 21st century battle it is a war that has been going on since Adam and Eve were given the first words that God voiced to humanity – the only difference is that the voices are now coming from the ones who claim to believe the words of God.

God bless

PaulB

[Will Kinney]

Originally Posted by PaulB

The only thing that has happened is that an unholy counterpart has been developed and established to oppose the position of those whose foundation is contrary to those who wish to rule the hearts and minds of the populous. This is not just a 21st century battle it is a war that has been going on since Adam and Eve were given the first words that God voiced to humanity – the only difference is that the voices are now coming from the ones who claim to believe the words of God.

God bless

PaulB

Excellent point, Paul.

Larry, let's look at the quote from John Owen and your own remarks.

"Of all the inventions of Satan to draw off the minds of men from the Word of God, this of decrying the authority of the originals seems to me the most pernicious."

Larry, to "decry" means to denounce, to condemn or to censure. John Owen was undoubtedly a mighty Christian man and he wrote a lot of good things. He also believe that the apostles and Christ Himself did not use some fictitious LXX, but rather the Hebrew Scriptures. Great.

Perhaps his quote here about the "originals" can be tempered by the fact that he undoubtedly used the King James Bible in his teaching and preaching. He lived from 1616 to 1683, so the KJB was his Bible.

However it seems that by his statement both you and he are setting TWO Standards as your final authority, and appealing to "originals" is a very poorly thought out position to hold and in fact contradicts your statement about the King James Bible being the infallible words of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777
Larry

do you believe the King James Bible is a pure preserved inspired word of God? without error?

[/quote]I believe that the texts underlying the KJV are pure, preserved, and infallible.

Further, i believe that the KJV is a faithful translation of those underlying texts, and is therefore also pure, preserved (for the English speaking peoples), and infallible.

I'm quite surprised that you would say this is the "doctrine of devils" as the quotes that i provided put forth the error of modern textual criticism.[/quote]

Actually Larry, you have tossed us right back into the error of modern textual criticism and so has John Owen by his quote.

Why? Simply because THERE ARE NO ORIGINALS. You are referring us to a Standard that SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST. You have never seen a single word of "the originals" and day in your life and neither did John Owen.

You are placing your faith in something thatyou know does not exist. You have absolutely no possible way of proving or demonstrating to anyone that the texts that underly the King James Bible "match" the originals, and you know it.

So why bring up two standards, the King James Bible and your non-existent, never seen, invisible and hypothetical "originals"? Don't be a double minded man. Go one way or the other, but don't pretend for a moment that by appealing to your long lost and never seen by you or anyone else "originals" you are somehow setting up the Standard for anything. They are not the final authority and never have been.

Think about it.

Will K

[Jassy]

I recall reading that theological academia invented the "science" of textual criticism, in a feeble attempt to discredit true believers, who often didn't have a doctorate or any formal education in "religion." I thank God that He didn't see the need for me to have such education - He knows that His true Word is ALL I NEED!!

It's such a disgrace how so many mislead Christians or deceptive UNbelievers, placed by the devil in high academic places, purposefully go about trying to SHAME the uneducated loyal Christians who remain faithful to the TRUTH - that we have the PURE, INFALLIBLE Word of God in the KJB1611.

It's been my JOY to discover other true Christians here on this board. Glad that you're here, brother, to join with us in uplifting God's inspired and preserved Bible!

That same source of deception that said to Adam and Eve in the Garden -"Yea, hath God said..." (Gen. 3:1) is still the same source that is gleefully causing division, doubt and heresay today! Satan, whether present in the serpent, or as a wolf in sheep's clothing amongst believers, uses the same age-old tactics that always worked for him. Cast and sow doubts... he's an expert at that. I'm happy that I see him for what he is: the father of LIES!"

Jassy

[larryb]

Originally Posted by Cloudwalker

I'm sorry but this is one of the reasons why I absolutely reject and detest Calvinism...They hold the writings of the reformers as inspired and infallible and also...they exalt these men to the point of worship...Augustine, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, RC Sproul, James White and on and on it goes.

No offense Larry but you obviously have an agenda here and that's to spread your reformed theology...but I call it a doctrine of devils, I'm not buying what you're selling, thanks anyways, I'll stick with the word of God and not man's opinion and interpretation.

It's quite scary.

I don't know of any who hold to the Reformed doctrines of the Bible who believe the Reformers were inspired, infallible, etc.
You clearly misunderstand Reformed theology if you have this view.

The Lord has blessed His Church with teachers throughout the years, and there is nothing wrong with learning from those God has blessed the Church with.

I'm quite surprised that you would say this is the "doctrine of devils" as the quotes that i provided put forth the error of modern textual criticism.

[Cloudwalker]

Originally Posted by larryb

I don't know of any who hold to the Reformed doctrines of the Bible who believe the Reformers were inspired, infallible, etc.
You clearly misunderstand Reformed theology if you have this view.

Respectfully, I disagree.

I have known countless of reformers who instead of quoting me Scripture in the past, they will give me some John Owen quote...or Aurthur Pink or Charles Spurgeon or RC Sproul or....I think you get the point, I hope you do.

It's time to put away MAN'S philosophy and opinion's and stick to what God has said.

The Holy Ghost interprets Scripture...not John Calvin or Augustine.

Oh, sorry for the harsh words of doctrine of devils...but after a brief study of Calvinism {and that's all it took, a brief study} there is no doubt in my mind. To say that God would choose some to the flames of fire and clearly He said it was PREPARED for Satan and his fallen angels is INSANE and blasphemy...if anyone goes to damnation, it will be from the free will that God has given them and nothing else...God is no Tyrant that reformed theology has turned Him into, no sir.

Think about it, if God has decreed some to damnation...HOW CAN HE JUDGE THEM???

LOL, it's ridiculous and unbelievable!