[Brother Tim]

And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

It's good you know that, brother Tim. Simply a called servant who should:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[Brother Tim]

BAAA!

[Amanda S.]

Greetings Bro. Forrest

In my opinion, the pastor is never called a shepherd in the Bible.

No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Why would a pastor be brutish over their own sheep? Because when put in a leadership roll often one gets the big head, and dictatorial as some have suggested can happen.


I Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Thus this verse. The pastor/shepherd is not to lord it over, so to speak, the flock under his leadership, but as stated - an ensample. Even the very nature of sheep is to follow...there is no need to be brutish towards sheep as they will simply follow.

Bro. Tim you said you thought of yourself as a leader not a shepherd...as a shepherd one of your jobs is to be a leader...not like a big mean and tough boss...

Is 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Psalm 1-2 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

I said I was done with this thread but I couldn't resist a couple more comments after studying a bit more.

Forgive me

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Help me out here. Where does that verse call a shepherd a pastor?

I'm being sarcastic -- I know what your point is. But you are reading into the passage.

The Shepherd owns his flock. The elders/bishops/etc are to lead the flock by example (not lording, as you noted).

Is 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Did you look at verse 10? Who is "He?"

Psalm 1-2 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Again, this verse is about the Lord. In my mind you have only strengthened the case against calling pastors "shepherds" with these verses -- they are about God and his flock!

I believe very strongly in the preeminence of Christ. The King James Bible calls Christ the "Cheif Shepherd" and never once applies the title of "shepherd" to a church office. Usurping that title may seem like a small issue to some, but to me, it is robbing Christ of something that is rightfully his and his alone.

[Amanda S.]

Greetings Bro. Brandon,

You asked:

Did you look at verse 10? Who is "He?"

"He" is the Chief Shepherd. I already stated in a previous post that I believed Christ is The Chief Shepherd and pastors, bishops are if you will "the undershepherds" {gasp} I know that word isn't in the Book but explains my thought.

Usurping that title may seem like a small issue to some, but to me, it is robbing Christ of something that is rightfully his and his alone.

OK, Brother I will drop the discussion as I've said all I could. I did not intend to offend.

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Brandon,

I did have one sincere question.

What does the word pastor mean?

[JaeByrd]

We recently watched a documentary on wild horses. When herding them they release a "Judas Horse" that is trained to run for the corral and the other wild horses follow.

Sheep also being a herd animal have similar instincts:

Sheep follow each other so reliably that special names apply to the different roles sheep play in a flock. One calls a sheep that roams furthest away from the others an outlier. This sheep undertakes to go out further away from the safety of the flock to graze, while taking a chance that a predator, such as a wolf, will attack it first because of its isolation.

Another sheep, the bellwether, which never goes first but always follows an outlier, signals to the others that they may follow in safety. When it moves, the others will also move. The tendency to act as outliers or as bellwethers, or to stick in the middle of the flock, seems to stay with sheep throughout their whole life

I wouldn't call a bellwether, or outlier, a shepherd (or "under-shepherd") even though they "lead" the flock. The bellwether is just another sheep that is usually one of the oldest of the flock making it wiser to the hazards of the field. It leads not through driving the flock (like sheep dogs) but by example.

Calling a pastor a "under-shepherd" puts them outside of or above the flock.

[custer]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Amanda, you are right; this is not a stretch, nor is it "reading into the passage!"

What if any of us read the following sentence:
"The women are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their children shall be scattered." Not one of us would have any doubt that the WOMEN in that sentence are MOTHERS, even though the word "MOTHERS" is not used in the passage! Women that have children are "mothers;" pastors that have flocks are "shepherds."

Brandon, I would NOT presume to rob the Lord Jesus Christ of any title...the type of a pastor as a shepherd is definitely a scriptural concept, evidenced by my example above and by the pastor's job description/responsibilities stated earlier by Amanda. The "chief Shepherd" passage (I Peter 5:1-4) leaves the impression that "the elders" are most certainly considered shepherds BECAUSE the Lord is referred to as the "chief Shepherd." The fact that there is an Indian "chief" assumes that there are Indians who are not the "chief" one; the fact that there is a "chief Shepherd" assumes that there are shepherds who are not the "chief" one!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[custer]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

I have always thought of a "bishop" as a "pastor;" is that the concensus here?

So, in I Timothy 3:1-7, there is only ONE bishop over the church as evidenced by the fact that his job is likened to that of A man RULING over his own house (v.5.) [Being the "ruler" makes him the "boss!"] Of course, a husband/father in authority is not just one of a few different sheep in the house! And, the bishop is not necessarily an "elder;" Timothy was younger (I Tim. 4:12.)

Looking at this, I saw something else: the wording in I Peter 2:25 is interesting concerning this subject - "the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." We already know that there are lower-case "bishops," and it logically follows from this verse that there would be lower-case "shepherds." (This is related to - and supports - my post #30.)

As an aside, in my reading this morning, I came across Psalm 111:9 - "...holy and reverend is his name." I believe that's the only reference to "reverend" in the Bible, and it says God's name is reverend. So, I think it's a much more serious issue for Pastors to put "reverend" in their title than to compare themselves scripturally to a shepherd. I would go so far as to say that calling someone "Reverend so-and-so" would be downright blasphemous!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com