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#1
06-20-2009, 10:52 PM
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here is my view.
It is either two totally unknown Jewish believers in Christ who will be revealed during that time. or it is Enoch of Gen5:24 and Elijah. Neither Enoch or Elijah died. And the scriptures tell us that it is appointed for every man to DIE ONCE then face judgement. Will Moses or John be risen to die again? Remember it can not violate Gods finished complete inspired inerrant preserved word of God. also remember a glorified body can not face destruction or corruption it is free from that. the two witness have their head cut off that is destruction and they die. Corruption by Jewish standards starts as early as 3 1/2 to 4 days after death hence the reason God did not leave Christ in the grave and raised him on the third day and fulfill the scripture that his holy one would not see corruption. Also Rev 11:11 And AFTER three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. were their heads on their bodies when they stood up? We are not told? headless bodies standing up would answer why so many feared them. Moses nor any righteous OT saint have glorified bodies yet. they have to face the GWT judgement of all the dead and enter the New Jerusalem to eat of the tree of life and drink of the rivers of the water of life. that is why we read for Israel that some are raised to everlasting glory and some to everlasting destruction in the last day. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Last edited by chette777; 06-20-2009 at 11:10 PM. |
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#2
06-21-2009, 03:47 PM
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Enoch: The Man Who Will Never Die
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Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? Why are you denying the power of God to raise from the dead? Because that's exactly what you do when you park at Hebrews 9 and say "...absolutely no way, the Bible says it..." Lazarus died twice. The young girl in Luke 8 died twice. Eutychius in Acts 20 died twice. "It's appointed unto men once to die..." and then Christ tells the Apostles and disciples: Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Jesus told John's disciples: Mt 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. All these people were dead and raised to life to die again. One death plus one death equals two deaths. Why did God write Hebrews 9:27 and then raise certain people to life, why is Elijah coming back to earth to die the first time and Moses the second time, since we've seen certain selected people died twice? John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? Are you going to allow God to glorify himself or stick with a private interpretation? Enoch cannot be the second witness for three reasons: 1. Enoch is a Gentile, not a Jew. Enoch did not receive the sign of the covenant(circumcision), there were no Jews until Abraham. 2. There are no records in Scripture Enoch ever performed any of the following: Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Only two men fit this description: Elijah for the first, and Moses is the second witness. Read Exodus 7:17 to Exodus 12:33. Read the book of Revelation, read the plagues in Revelation and see that the plagues that will smite the earth are the same plagues that smote Egypt in Exodus 7-12. 3. Enoch cannot die. Not now or ever. Enoch already has a glorified body: Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There are people who will be alive at the Calling out of the Church from the world who will never die, just like Enoch. That is why I said that Enoch is a Bible type of those saints alive at the "Rapture". Enoch never died and never will, there are possibly people alive today who will never die. How is I Thess. 4:16 reconciled with Hebrews 9:27? Can you answer that question or are you going to blow me off to Ruckman and Harry Ironside's private interpretations as Bro. Parrish did? Chette, the reason I have not been active in the forum for the last couple weeks is two reasons: The forum is becoming like FFF: Contentious name-callers is the first reason. The second reason is I used to spend a lot of time writing messages and responding to messages that are read, and not studied, and if studied not believed. At one time I instructed a Sunday School Bible study of 16 kids aged 8-12 in Isaiah 28:9-13 and was asked, can we use a concordance? I said most definitely, that's why concordances were made. I gave them 3 questions to study: 1. What was the "star" of Bethlehem 2. Who is the anti-Christ? 3 Who are the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11? I got these answers: 1. An angel 2. Judas Iscariot 3. Moses and Elijah Why is it children can get what grown adults either can't or won't? Jud 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Brother, I can't come and read, study, and believe your Bible for you. You have to set the private interpretations of others and yourself aside before God will give you understanding in anything. Now, you are free(until Islam takes your country and mine)to believe what you wish. Grace and peace to you brother Chette. Tony Last edited by tonybones2112; 06-21-2009 at 03:55 PM. Reason: typo |
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#3
06-21-2009, 06:36 PM
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actually I was more interested in the 5 cherub that Satan was in charge of?
but as far as translated so Enoch would not see death according as stated in hebrews. does not indicate he received a glorified body. or that he will not return and see death at another time. It is clear the death he did not see was that of the flood that is in the context of Hebrews and Genesis 5. and yes I believe people will be translated just like Enoch (no details on how God took him in Genesis 5) or Elijah. so it is not an issue of a rapture either. Also it is not an issue of God being able to raise the dead. I believe he has and will again. I never said I didn't believe God would raise the dead as you accused me of. as a matter of fact I stated that he would raise the dead and the two witnesses. we are told in 1 Cor that only the body of Christ dead or alive will be raised into glorified bodies. this however may not be the case with Enoch or Elijah. and most definitely is not the case with any dead OT Saint. where in Scriptures does it say clearly that Enoch got a glorified body? how could you tie in Enoch to 1 Corinthians he never believed on Christ as Saviour and that Christ dies for his sins, nor is he a member of the Body of Christ. someone could take your statements as a private interpretation. God is dealing with two types of people during the Great Tribulation mainly Israel but also the Gentile nations. both these are clear in scriptures. so what so difficult for God to use Enoch as a witness not just to Jews but to Gentiles? Why two witnesses? why no just one? 144,000 had already been running around witnessing too. And so what the plagues are like the ones God preformed through Moses that doesn't mean it is Moses. God is the one who will be performing the feats through the two. it is not the man it is the God the men serve that does the plagues and feats. the second death is not the type of Physical death we experience today. Death in the Lake of fire where Death and hell shall be cast into, tells us the second death is not like the first. you confuse them to make a person dying twice in a mortal fleshly fashion. someone might take that as a private interpretation. sorry I don't read Ironside and as far as Ruckman I take his words with caution as well. I have found some of his stuff off as well. children give answers to what they have been taught. but those same children dont study to see what they are taught are true but we were talking about the two witnesses. and you made mention about Satan being a supreme being and overlord of 5 cherubs. I was just wondering where in the Bible is says that about Satan? |
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#4
06-21-2009, 08:07 PM
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Brother Chette, you might consider the fact that Elijah and Moses have been prophesied by Malachi and foreshadowed in Matthew to signal the Lord's Second Coming.
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#5
06-22-2009, 12:10 AM
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Malachi could of been prophesying of Elijah who is to come was John the Baptist and Jesus said so. Mt 11:7-14 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
And as for Moses - a prophet like him was Jesus you see Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. I could not find in Malachi that he prophesied of Moses return. which verse is that? Now it may be a two part prophecy of which we agree to that understanding. but does it have to be the actually Elijah and Moses? the previous verses state no it does not. I made my conclusion based on the scriptures that it was appointed for and to die once than face judgement. What Tbones forgot is that Christians are already dead in Christ and our Judgement is already done one the cross. so our rapture fits as we are all dead in Christ. 2Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: |
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#6
06-22-2009, 12:20 AM
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Bro. Chette,
The Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17) can also not be ignored. It is what Peter wrote about when he said we were "eyewitnesses of his majesty" (referring to the Second Coming). Peter, James, and John saw Moses and Elijah being with Christ, and Peter later wrote that this is a foresight of the Second Coming. Also, Enoch never did one of the miracles done by any of the two witnesses. The three major reasons why I'm convinced that the Two Witnesses had to be Moses and Elijah is because: 1. PROPHECY: OT prophets have been prophesying the coming of the two, or the prophets have associated the names of the two with the Second Coming. There is no prophecy of the scripture anywhere that ever indicates the return of Enoch. 2. TRANSFIGURATION: The Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17) is a preview of the Second Coming (according to Peter). Moses and Elijah, not Moses and Enoch, appeared. 3. REVELATION: In Revelation 11, the two witnesses can only be identified by what they did and by what happened to them. The miracles they did had been done by both Moses and Elijah. Enoch did no miracles whatsoever. So far, that's all I have! 
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#7
06-22-2009, 12:35 AM
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Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: The key is Matthew 17. Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ in the Mount of Transfiguration. According to Peter, what they witnessed with their eyes and heard with their ears was the Second Coming. 2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, WHEN we were with him in the holy mount. Quote:
I'm sure it can't be Enoch. The two witnesses were not required to not have experienced death. We identify them because of their miracles, not because they have never experienced death. To put a requirement that they not experience death before that has no strong Scriptural support. Their qualification, credential, identification, or whatever we call that is that they do those kinds of miracles, which all have been done by Moses and Elijah. I think the key to the whole matter is these scriptures: Malachi 4 Matthew 17 2 Peter 1 |
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#8
06-22-2009, 01:54 AM
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Mal 4:4 does not say anything about Moses coming again. I agree that the partial fulfillment.
Yeah I agree and I will not rule out that it will be the literal Moses and Elijah. right no requirement to have not died once. But God's word would not be true if anything goes against even one scripture so for a man to die twice in this life and it not be the second death of Rev. 19? you see the problem if men are appointed once to die then judgement Moses has already died and now must face judgement GWT but his name is written in the book of life. you will notice as many do not all three of those scripture deal solely with Israel. Tbones, I have not bent any scriptures I simple took them for what they say. not what they mean. I also keep in mind the whole context and Gods character which can't be violated. you need not me to quote you scriptures for you know which I am speaking of. I think you need to take a chill pill about the BK thing and relax bro. man you sound like you are wound up tighter than a clock spring. Elijah was taken up as was Enoch. Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. 2Kings 2:9-11 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Hebrews tells us he was translated. 1Cor 15 never calls what takes place a translation. The context of Hebrews is narrative of what took place in the past. surely as God made little green apples Enoch would have been alive at the time of the flood. translated because his testimony pleased God. I have no problem with that. he got Gods grace so he would not die of Old Age (impossible because the Flood was in Gods plan) death in the flood seeing Gen 5 is nothing more than a genealogy and Chapter 6 announces God plan for the flood. the death God saved him from can be concluded by the scriptures is death by drowning in the flood. This does not mean he will or will not be the witness in Revelation and I know that it also means Moses nor Elijah will be the two witnesses either.God does not tell us who the two witnesses will be. please reread your post #29 you are putting words in my mouth stop that you are wrong. If you want to keep attacking me and say I believe in a BK Bible. where's the beef? OK what scripture says that Lucifer was one of Five Cherubs and he was their chief? you keep saying but you have no scriptures to prove it. And if you are referring to the four Seraphim of Exekiel1 or Cherubim of Ezekiel 10. And you saying he was part of that and is no longer there where do you get that? not from scripture but from private interpretation. only one verse calls a being an anointed Cherub that covereth. We connect dots to make it Lucifer/Satan. but nowhere does it ever say that it was he that covered the throne of God. that is purely the assumption of men. the Bible never shows the Chariot throne of God to have been anything more than what we see in Ezekiel. and I don't believe Gods throne was torn apart in the past. of course it would have taken place before Gen1:3 and that would be why it is not revealed in any detail as to what this being covered. no need to get so dogmatic about this seeing God is silent as to whom these two witnesses are. and thank God no one is going to loose their salvation if they don't believe the two witnesses are or are not Elijah and Moses. as far as your post I did read it. I know what the scriptures say and I have them opened to the the text in question. none of them prove that the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses and if you want to because the same types of plagues are present or fire from heaven is there go ahead but it doesn't mean I did not look at what the BIBLE says. also none of them prove that Enoch will not be one of them. I assumed it to be Elijah and Enoch because neither of them died physically and God word said, Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Whether Enoch is a witness or not. God saved him from death in the flood and that is obvious i have no problem believing that. if God wants to send Enoch or Elijah or MOses or John or TBones to be the two witnesses that is his will. I did not say God had to do anything I posted. and it was wrong of you to imply that seeing I never did imply that. in conclusion my guess is as good as yours. seeing God is silent and does not say who they are. you can waste you time to argue more. but I give up. My mind however is not made up and I could change my view on who the two are. Last edited by chette777; 06-22-2009 at 02:16 AM. |
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#9
06-22-2009, 12:33 AM
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Brother, I'm not trying to mean. If you want to believe the two witnesses are Frank Sinatra and Ozzy Osborne, you're going to believe what you want to. Who the two witnesses are in Rev. 11 is not going to put one lost sinner into the Body of Christ, only the preaching of the cross will do that. And unless you apply Isaiah 28 to your Bible study the preaching of the cross is the only thing you're going to know. You'll pardon me again, I say this with charity, the statement on Enoch and the Flood is probably the silliest thing I've read in this forum and equal only to the grasping at straws of one member who tried to say Babtist water baptism and the Spirit baptism of I Cor. 12:13 was "one baptism" becasue a husband and wife are "one flesh" in the Water Baptism thread, the same thing the Church of Christ teaches. Enoch cannot die in Rev. 11 without being "untranslated".What did Enoch do that caused God to give him such favor? Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Chette, your "interpretation" methods would say to me, oh, unless I see Enoch's scars I will not believe, all flesh is as grass, all have sinned, all our righteousness is a filthy rags, including Enoch's...Brother, you can't tell God what to do. You and I are going to die someday and be absent from the body and present with Him and I don;t want to die because I fear the manner of my death and I'm going to grab every AK-47 I can get my hands on to keep from dying, but it's God will and I have to do it. If the Scriptures say Lucifer was "the annointed cherub" out of five it means he was the chief cherub of those five and chief created being whether we want him to be or not. Chette, you skimmed my message, you didn't read it. If you did read it, you didn't study it. If you did study it, you don't believe it. So why take the trouble to write this? Two reasons: You are my brother in Christ, and someone will read it and believe it and see you can't bend the Scriptures around your interpretations, the Scriptures bend you. Grace and peace brother Tony Last edited by tonybones2112; 06-22-2009 at 12:40 AM. Reason: typo |
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#10
06-23-2009, 12:08 PM
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Re: "The Two Witnesses"
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Aloha brother Chette, For what it's worth consider and compare: Quote:
Please consider: Quote:
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The Scriptures state: "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" The Scriptures did NOT "SAY": that "all men" MUST DIE; and they do NOT say: that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE. The Scriptures state: "it is appointed" - Hebrews 9:27 is a general statement of fact - there have been EXCEPTIONS - Enoch & Elijah foremost, PLUS all those people who were raised from the dead in both the Old Testament and the New Testament (who died again - a second time) - the Bible has recorded EXCEPTIONS to the "general rule", of that none of us can deny. So what do we do? Now we know and believe that there are NO errors or contradictions in the Bible, so then when we come to a verse such as Hebrews 9:27 we must search the Scriptures and seek the mind of Christ in this matter in order to determine "what is truth". The "truth" is that there are recorded instances in the Holy Scriptures of people (Enoch & Elijah) who NEVER DIED. That being the case - "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" CANNOT "mean" that "all men" MUST DIE! {Because there have been "EXCEPTIONS"} And the "truth" is that there are recorded instances in the Holy Scriptures of people who died, (both in the Old & New Testaments) and who were raised from the dead, and who DIED AGAIN, i.e. A SECOND TIME! That being the case - "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" CANNOT "mean" that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE. {Because again, there have been "EXCEPTIONS"} This being the case, we are faced with the fact that either there are contradictions in the Holy Bible (which I do not accept or believe), or: "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" is a "general rule" and does NOT "MEAN" (what many make it "mean") that "all men" MUST DIE; or that "all men" MUST DIE ONLY ONCE. Now on to the "two witnesses". The Tribulation is called "the time of Jacob's trouble". [Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.] That being the case - then the Tribulation is peculiarly Jewish, having to do with God calling His people (the nation of Israel) back to Him. Would God use a "Gentile" to call His people? I doubt it! No, whoever the "two witnesses" are, they are definitely going to be "HEBREWS" - that's how God dealt with the Israelites all throughout the Old Testament; throughout the Lord's earthly ministry (the Four Gospels); and throughout the Book of Acts. God has always used Hebrews (Prophets or Apostles) to deal with His Hebrew children, and I don't believe that He is going to change the "pattern" in the Tribulation. And knowing how stubborn and self-righteous the Jews are - do you really think that they will listen to some Gentile? I doubt it. I believe that brother Tony and brother Sammy and some of the other brethren are correct. I believe that the two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah. Neither one of them possess a "glorified" body yet, and so both of them would still be subject to DEATH! Enoch is a "type" of the "believer" (in the church age) who will NEVER DIE. Moses is a "type" of the "believer" (A "Hebrew" believer - in the Tribulation) who will die in the Tribulation, and who will be "raised" (without a "glorified" body) to go into the Millennial reign of Christ, and who will die AGAIN in it. And Elijah is a "type" of the "believer" (A "Hebrew" believer -in the Tribulation) who will live through it and be caught out near the end, who will return for the Millennial reign of Christ, and who will die in it. These are doctrines and beliefs that many of us hold, but certainly are NOT "Fellowship" breakers. I will not argue or debate over this issue, because there is too much speculation involved and not enough Scripture to make this one of the Major doctrines. This is a personal "conviction" that I hold, but I do not "insist" that you or anyone else MUST believe as I do in this matter. As brother Tony would say - "Grace and peace" brother.
Last edited by George; 06-23-2009 at 12:14 PM. |
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