[Biblestudent]

In our village (barangay), common people will call anyone who who preaches a "pastor". If they hear a deacon preach, they would call him "pastor". If they hear one of our young men preach, they would call him "pastor". If they see a male church member wearing his shirt tucked in and holding a Bible in his hand, they would call him "pastor". Even when we play basketball, a faithful church member with a head that looks almost bald is called "pastor".

I guess, a "pastor" is someone who preaches and looks like a pastor.

[chette777]

Sammy is right. they have been calling me pastor since I came to the Philippines.

[custer]

There IS a man (singular) in a "leadership position" (a biblical church office) in I Timothy 3:1-7. There is only ONE bishop as opposed to plural "deacons" referred to in verses 8-13 of the same chapter. And this ONE MAN (that is to "take care of the church of God") is likened to A man RULING over his own house...we all know that there is to be just ONE MAN ruling his own house, not a plurality of leaders in the home. Again, this man is correlated to someone who RULES, not just another "ordinary Christian."

Those that are over us in the Lord are NOT to be treated like "ordinary Christians," according to Paul. We are "to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake." (I Thes. 5:12-13) And the "elders that RULE well" are to "be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." (I Tim. 5:17)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[Amanda S.]

Pam said:

There IS a man (singular) in a "leadership position" (a biblical church office) in I Timothy 3:1-7. There is only ONE bishop as opposed to plural "deacons" referred to in verses 8-13 of the same chapter. And this ONE MAN (that is to "take care of the church of God") is likened to A man RULING over his own house...we all know that there is to be just ONE MAN ruling his own house, not a plurality of leaders in the home. Again, this man is correlated to someone who RULES, not just another "ordinary Christian."

Those that are over us in the Lord are NOT to be treated like "ordinary Christians," according to Paul. We are "to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake." (I Thes. 5:12-13) And the "elders that RULE well" are to "be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." (I Tim. 5:17)

Amen, Sister Pam. I didn't see where anyone addressed this post. You make great points in which I agree.

You've probably noted that the verses you quoted are given to us. That should be out heart attitude, our treatment of those elders.

This is how we are told to treat fellow brothers and sisters -

Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Yet, we are told here to highly esteem those which labour among us, admonish us and are over us

I Thess 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Yet, Bro. George brings out more applicable verses:

But notice here who this is written to:

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

These verses are a warning to not puff YOURSELF up. Not to think to highly of YOURSELF. Not negating the verses to those us as to who we are to esteem.

It is written how we are to think of men...Those that "rule" well and labour among us we are to highly esteem. And as Christians we are all (even the leadership) to esteem another better than ourselves.

Now lest I alert the forum police I had better not post anymore today

[greenbear]

A great study, brother George.

A quote from you from the Church Governance thread:

The New Testament church is a BODY with THE LORD JESUS CHRIST as its only HEAD. Anyone claiming to be that head (pastors-elders-bishops-etc.) are PRETENDERS and USURPERS and THIEVES and ROBBERS!

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1460

[George]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

In our village (barangay), common people will call anyone who who preaches a "pastor". If they hear a deacon preach, they would call him "pastor". If they hear one of our young men preach, they would call him "pastor". If they see a male church member wearing his shirt tucked in and holding a Bible in his hand, they would call him "pastor". Even when we play basketball, a faithful church member with a head that looks almost bald is called "pastor".

I guess, a "pastor" is someone who preaches and looks like a pastor.

chette777

"Sammy is right. they have been calling me pastor since I came to the Philippines."

Aloha brothers Sammy and Chette,

I am not too picky uni or such a "gnatstrainer" that I object to the title "pastor" - my whole point is that some people on the Forum were attempting to ELEVATE an "elder" to the position of "UNDER-SHEPHERD" based on the use of the word "pastors"; and all I am trying to do is point out that they had better be extremely careful in their attempts to glorify men, because the term "pastor" may not be the appropriate Scriptural word to use to describe the Scriptural "position" of an "elder" in the church of God.

I didn't even point out that the only time that the word "pastors" is used, it is used in conjunction with "teachers", so that if someone wants to use "pastor" as THE "TITLE" for an "elder" in the church - the proper Scriptural "Title" would have to be "pastor and teacher", NOT simply "pastor".

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The Holy Scriptures testify that: He gave "some, apostles"; He gave "some, prophets"; He gave "some, evangelists; and He gave "some, pastors and teachers". Please notice that He did NOT just give "pastors" (alone) - He gave "some, pastors and teachers" (combined). If this is the proper Scriptural "Title" for an "elder" in the church of God, then it should be used in conjunction with the word "teachers" - which would make for a strange "TITLE", but if this is a "title" that describes the kind of "work" that an "elder" does in the church of God, then it makes sense.

Just one more reason for Christians not to get "carried away" with only one word, in only one verse, and take it to an extreme and try to "prove" a "private opinion" and twist and wrest the words of God, and try to make them "mean" something other than what they say!

I grow weary of all of the "speculation", "hypothesis", and "guess work" of some of the Christians on the Forum. If they do not know what they are talking about - WHY are they posting their "private opinions" on spiritual matters that are of such great importance?

The ELEVATION of a mere man (a saved sinner) ABOVE the rest of his Christian brethren is a SIN! And the MAGNIFICATION of a mere man's "position" in the church of God to that of an "UNDER-SHEPHERD" is SIN! And if some "Christians" support either one of these pernicious teachings, they are either ignorant (in which case they shouldn't be commenting) or they have a "personal agenda" in trying to make some man (a saved sinner) something more than he really is!

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

[Biblestudent]

You're right, Brother George!
Some Bible school graduate and some pastors here would feel offended when you call them "Brother".
Some of them would also look down on our night class Bible school graduates. They'd call them "half-ripe" preachers!

I'd call those title-conscious reverends and doctors as "overcooked"!

[chette777]

George you are right.

I read the first part of the first post of the shepherds pastors and stopped reading and said I would not get involved in that thread. there are a few threads I am not reading nor participating in.

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Chette,

Chette said: I read the first part of the first post of the shepherds pastors and stopped reading and said I would not get involved in that thread. there are a few threads I am not reading nor participating in.

You are probably very wise in that.
It was a lot of hypothesis and comparison, but I finally had to admit Brandon was right...there had to be a reason a pastor/teacher was never actually called a shepherd. I admitted I was wrong.

I do so wish that people would be a bit gracious in their correcting as no one can learn anything if they are blasted the moment they make a mistake, speak out of turn, or understand the Bible incorrectly.

Pr 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

Too often grievous words are spoken and the person loses sight of the topic and issue at hand and hones in on the grievous words.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that any comments I made on that thread, I conceded in the very end

[chette777]

Yes Amanda, I think people are still growing spiritually in that area and are learning to try not to be so hard or blasting in their responses so as not to offend.

it takes time to grow and some of us came to the Lord late in life and carry garbage and baggage that we have to learn to let go.