[Forrest]

Originally Posted by PaulB

I do think that you are onto something here because as I see it we must never overlook the fact that sin is the rebellion of sinners – yes sin is an act, but it is the outworkings of the heart (people sin because their nature is evil and not because they are unaware that God loves them). Christ will judge and condemn sinners to the lake of fire forever (not just the memory of their outward acts – but the actual people who carried them out).

Now concerning the idea that God was a God of wrath in the OT and that now in NT He has been changed into a God of tolerance is totally unscriptural. In the OT we had the law (but that doesn’t mean to say that only the Israelis who disobeyed it were transgressors), it means that everyone was a transgressor.

In the NT it is very similar in the sense that those who are under covenant are held up as examples of their owner – but it differs greatly when it applies to the world (as they are not under grace, but a slow ticking clock).

Christians are under grace, but that doesn’t mean to say that the entire human race is under that same grace. They are still enemies of God (even though His love has been made manifest to them) but like I said earlier, it only intensifies their present position as His enemies unless they respond to that love and hand over the reigns.

There are many occasions where God’s anger at sinners (not just their acts) are illustrated in the NT:

Mt.23:13-15 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

Rv.6:15-17 “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Rv.14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Rv.16:16 “And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.”

It just doesn’t ring true to me that the only real crime that sinners are guilty of under this “new dispensation of grace” is that they send themselves to a lost eternity because they were uninformed about a Jesus who loved them and that God was powerless to do anything.

To even hint at the thought that He wasn’t angry with them – but only their works is totally unscriptural.

Rm.2:5-8 “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,”

Mt.22:2-7 “The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.”


Hb.10:26-29 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You just need to listen to men like Art Katz to be convinced of the mighty acts of God against His enemies.

God bless

PaulB

Greetings Brother Paul. I agree with you that the lost will face the wrath of God. I am reminded of Amanda's specific question on her original post:

If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

There has been ample explanation to how a person reconciles the "godly attitude" (Hate the sin/love the sinner) with Psalms 5:5 which says God hates all the workers of iniquity.

Perhaps this is what needs to be said. I have yet to find a verse that exhorts, admonishes, teaches, commands, or encourages me or any other human being to "hate" the sinner.

But based on Amanda's reference to Psalms 5:5, the question of whether or not God HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY is being discussed. At least that's kind of where I took it. We are not really discussing the anger, wrath, or displeasure of God toward sin. But His hatred for the worker of iniquity. The question at hand, based on Psalms 5:5, is does God still hate all workers of iniquity?

Some of us say based on our understanding of the word of God, He does.

[Amanda S.]

My original question really is two-fold although I clearly didn't phrase it that way.

1) Does God hate the wicked?
2) If so what should our position be as Christians towards the wicked?

I think we have proven that God does hate the wicked and those who reject His offer of love at the cross. I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some. But neither do I believe He loves all sinners, only those redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Obviously not all agree. So now for me the question is what do we do with this Scripture for us as saved people?

21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Again, for those of you condemning harsh preachers or street preachers preaching "God hates sinners" I am not suggesting anyone does that nor do I agree with that methodology. I for one have never heard a preacher preach on this topic specifically although I am sure it has been mentioned in passing. I found these quotes from church history very interesting:

JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)

CHARLES H. SPURGEON: “Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. GOD HATES THE WICKED, therefore in contrast He loves the righteous...” (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)

J. VERNON MCGEE: “ If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. GOD HATES THE WICKED who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and HE HATES THOSE WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF TURNING TO GOD. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that ‘God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.’ God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy.” (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)

MATTHEW HENRY’S COMMENTARY: “He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”

And to just throw this out there I honestly do not think that the average church age Christian could hate righteously. Most of us are carnal and we have a long way to go in loving God let alone worrying about the wicked. But I just get so ill when people throw about "God loves, God loves. God is love, love, love" and they never ever tell the other side.

[PaulB]

Hi forest/Amanda!

What I was getting at in a rather long-winded response was the fact that; yes God loves people (even His enemies), as the cross is the ultimate demonstration of that. But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!

We (as Christians) are sinners, but redeemed and thus under the forgiveness of God because of Christ’s finished work. As there are sinners out there who will always love their sin and reject the God who made them. People whose consciences are seared, others who have been handed over to their lusts and others who are (at the expense of their own free will) out there to hate God no matter what He says to them.

I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see has a person whom God hates. The life of the sinner cannot be separated from the sinner himself and it is also key to approach a subject like this from God’s eternal prospective (which means that He see things outside of the boundaries of time). What I mean by that is that God decides whom He loves and hates from what His prospective not ours!

Hope this comes across a bit clearer

God bless

PaulB

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by PaulB

Hi forest/Amanda!

What I was getting at in a rather long-winded response was the fact that; yes God loves people (even His enemies), as the cross is the ultimate demonstration of that. But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!

We (as Christians) are sinners, but redeemed and thus under the forgiveness of God because of Christ’s finished work. As there are sinners out there who will always love their sin and reject the God who made them. People whose consciences are seared, others who have been handed over to their lusts and others who are (at the expense of their own free will) out there to hate God no matter what He says to them.

I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see has a person whom God hates. The life of the sinner cannot be separated from the sinner himself and it is also key to approach a subject like this from God’s eternal prospective (which means that He see things outside of the boundaries of time). What I mean by that is that God decides whom He loves and hates from what His prospective not ours!

Hope this comes across a bit clearer

God bless

PaulB

It is clearer (somewhat). Based on your clarification, we are in agreement that God hates all the workers of iniquity.

You wrote: I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see as a person whom God hates.

Brother Paul, in the quote below I do not understand why you are using the words "displeasing" or "no pleasure" when the Holy Bible says "hatest".

You wrote: But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!

Anyway, I think you also believe that God "hatest" all workers of iniquity who are not in Christ, is that right?

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

My original question really is two-fold although I clearly didn't phrase it that way.

1) Does God hate the wicked?
2) If so what should our position be as Christians towards the wicked?

I think we have proven that God does hate the wicked and those who reject His offer of love at the cross. I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some. But neither do I believe He loves all sinners, only those redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Obviously not all agree. So now for me the question is what do we do with this Scripture for us as saved people?

Again, for those of you condemning harsh preachers or street preachers preaching "God hates sinners" I am not suggesting anyone does that nor do I agree with that methodology. I for one have never heard a preacher preach on this topic specifically although I am sure it has been mentioned in passing. I found these quotes from church history very interesting:

And to just throw this out there I honestly do not think that the average church age Christian could hate righteously. Most of us are carnal and we have a long way to go in loving God let alone worrying about the wicked. But I just get so ill when people throw about "God loves, God loves. God is love, love, love" and they never ever tell the other side.

Psalms 139:21-22 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Amanda, regarding the scriptures above, the only thing I point out is that they are pre-death, pre-burial, and pre-resurrection of Jesus Christ. I’m not convinced that now those of us who in Christ and are under grace should ever hate individuals who sin. Perhaps you know of a verse that instructs those of us who are saved, to hate the sinner.

Also, concerning your statement:

I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some.

Where do you get that in scripture? Remember, Psalms 5:5 says, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

[Amanda S.]

But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature.

Bro. Paul careful not to water down the Scriptures here. Such a hard thing to say for us in this effiminate society we live in isn't it?

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Forrest,

Where do you get that in scripture? Remember, Psalms 5:5 says, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Ya got me.

[Amanda S.]

Anyway, I think you also believe that God "hatest" all workers of iniquity who are not in Christ, is that right?

Bro. Forrest, I believe he's almost there...Just. So. Hard. To. Spit. It. Out.


Maybe if we can convince him to type it really fast then hit post while closing his eyes

[PaulB]

Come on you guys give me a break!

If I would have simply quoted Scripture verse that I believe to be true (which is all of them) it wouldn’t have helped you this way or that to understand what I was trying to tell you. And I certainly wasn’t attempting to even paraphrase Scripture let alone “water it down” – I was trying to express my point in simple words so that the general ethos of it was coming across without having to keep explaining it.

If you are asking me – do I believe the following:

Ps.5: 4-6 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

Then how do you expect me to say no? of course I believe that God hates the workers of iniquity! I was simply attempting to present my case in an understandable way rather than just saying “this is what I believe” – otherwise I knew that I would have to keep answering those who couldn’t understand why I believed what I was stating.

Now am I any clearer?

God bless

PaulB

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by PaulB

Come on you guys give me a break!

If I would have simply quoted Scripture verse that I believe to be true (which is all of them) it wouldn’t have helped you this way or that to understand what I was trying to tell you. And I certainly wasn’t attempting to even paraphrase Scripture let alone “water it down” – I was trying to express my point in simple words so that the general ethos of it was coming across without having to keep explaining it.

If you are asking me – do I believe the following:

Ps.5: 4-6 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

Then how do you expect me to say no? of course I believe that God hates the workers of iniquity! I was simply attempting to present my case in an understandable way rather than just saying “this is what I believe” – otherwise I knew that I would have to keep answering those who couldn’t understand why I believed what I was stating.

Now am I any clearer?

God bless

PaulB

No harm here, brother. And I appreciate you letting your nay be nay and your yea be yea.