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The problem is Gord, you will now make everything about Calvinism, because that is the essence of Calvinism. Nothing will be untainted by God's "eternal decree".
Let me ask you this. Since you believe "God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.", why did he reject billions more, if he actually wants them to be saved? God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11), and yet, according to you, God intentionally reprobated or passively passed them by, depending on your lapsarian view, for his sovereign pleasure, when he could have elected them. So either God does take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, or he doesn't take pleasure in it. The Bible says that all things were created for His pleasure (Rev 4:11), but God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11). Now, the standard calvinist answer to my above question is either i) The secret will of God cannot be known, who art thou O man that repliest against God... Or, if you want to be more discussive & turn it around to be positive, it's usually ii) God looked down upon man concluded all under sin and was not obliged to save any. The wonder of His grace is that He chose to save some! But those don't answer the question at all, but bypass it. The question remains, why does a Sovereign God who emphatically states he i) Takes no pleasure in the wicked ii) Wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth iii) Is not willing that any should perish iv) Recieves glory from praise and obedience ,Secretly declare that BILLIONS will go to hell (because he either chose them (reprobated) to go, or passed over them while he was decreeing unconditional election - the difference is moot really), and that the reason they go to hell is for his Sovereign PLEASURE and GLORY? You have a God who contradicts his own nature and very word. |
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#3
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:Brother Luke,
If you took the time to study this, you would know the answer, rather that formating your ideas and statements on the quotes of the hearsay of others who likewise did not take the time to search the scriptures for specific answers. Quote:
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Now, here is where you spin out... I never said anything about reprobation from Eze 33:11. I simply stated that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Now, to link them up, and I quote myself with some modifications - Quote:
By lapsarian view, I mean the order of God's decree. There are generally three views. Sub, Supra and Infra. There are supposedly five parts to God's eternal decree. Here they are in no particular order i) The decree to elect some to salvation and leave others to their just condemnation. (some modify this to include the purposeful reprobation of the wicked, rather than the passive "leaving others") ii) The Decree to create all men iii) The Decree to permit the fall iv) The Decree to provide salvation for men v) The Decree to apply salvation to men Those are given in no order. The three different lapsarian views attempt to put in order God's decrees. The Sublapsarian view puts them in this order i) Decree to create all men. ii) Decree to permit the fall. iii) Decree to elect those who do believe and to leave in just condemnation those who do not believe. iv) Decree to provide salvation for men. v) Decree to apply salvation to those who believe. In this order, God creates all men, permits the fall, elects those who believe and then provides Jesus Christ as the means to redeem those he has elected. The Infralapsarian view puts them in this order i)Decree to create all men. ii)Decree to permit the fall. iii)Decree to provide salvation for men. iv)Decree to elect those who do believe and to leave in just condemnation all who do not believe. v)Decree to apply salvation to those who believe. This view is normally taken by more moderate calvinists. Charles Stanley, Lewis Sperry Chafer and most older dispensationalists held to this view. It is similar to the Sub view... And then there is the Superlapsarian view. This is the consistent view of most calvinists especially presbyterians, as well as men like John Piper, Paul Washer, A.W. Pink, Sproul, Ryle etc. i)Decree to elect some to be saved and to reprobate all others. ii)Decree to create men both elect and non-elect. iii) Decree to permit the fall. iv) Decree to provide salvation for the elect. v) Decree to apply salvation to the election. Here is the most consistent calvinist view of God's eternal decrees. Except the order given directly makes God the author of all sin. You see, according to the common calvinist view, God elects those who he would save BEFORE he even permits the fall, before he provides salvation, before he decrees anything else. It's not that he looks on all mankind and sees none worthy of salvation and has grace on some anyway, but that he "sovereignly" decrees some to heaven while reprobating all others and so the fall is the means to reprobation. Everything that follows is simply to complete this "secret will" of divine reprobation. God created the elect and non elect because he had already decreed to save some and damn others. He FORCED the fall because he had already decreed to save some and damn others. He provides salvation for those he chose to save while leaving the others without hope. And he forcibly saves those He chose while forcibly offering no hope to those he willed to perish. So you still didn't answer my question Does God take pleasure in damning souls to eternity that he personally reprobated, or does it sadden him? And if it saddens Him, why did he do it? And if he willed it all to happen, as the common calvinist interpretation sees it, why does He say it's not His will to see any perish? Quote:
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Also: It's really hard to reply when you make changes to a quote. You should quote small portions at a time. God bless |
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