[Ask Mr. Religion]

Originally Posted by PaulB

This would probably be a good way to temp Mr Religion to throw his penny’s worth in as he seems to have a good understanding of history!

Rather than construct the argument on my own, with no doubt less clarity, I will simply agree with the cogent comments shown here:

http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/ant...n4_issue1.html

AMR

[peopleoftheway]

The heading "The 95 theses of contention against dispensationalism" at the top of the page was enough to send me to the X to close that site.
It is obvious you hold a reformed position and you have stated that from the word go, that is your liberty.
However to anyone that may visit those links particularly "babes in Christ" may I urge you to take heed as it is entrenched in Calvinism.

While everyone is at liberty to post links to reformed websites and promotion of Calvinism, I too am also at liberty to promote material against this erroneous teaching, and may I recommend Laurence Vance's "The Other side of Calvinism" that a few other dear brothers have also recommended.

[Amanda S.]

Greetings Mrs. Hayseed

Mrs. Hayseed said: There is nothing wrong with a married couple using contraception.Goodness we are still under the curse and part of that is multiplying births,we have to actually do something to limit the number of children we have.

Not all christian couples do use contraception,they feel it is between them and God and fair enough too.

I was just wondering what Scripture you have to support this? Or is it a lack of Scripture on the subject that forms this conclusion?

I am not ready to post my thoughts on this matter as I am still gathering my verses. I've studied this out before but it's been awhile and unfortunately I never wrote it down

I do not mean this argumentatively but am just asking how did you come to this conclusion?

Be blessed!

[Hayseed]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

Greetings Mrs. Hayseed



I was just wondering what Scripture you have to support this? Or is it a lack of Scripture on the subject that forms this conclusion?

I am not ready to post my thoughts on this matter as I am still gathering my verses. I've studied this out before but it's been awhile and unfortunately I never wrote it down

I do not mean this argumentatively but am just asking how did you come to this conclusion?

Be blessed!

You must have personal thoughts of your own on this matter,you seem all grown up to me.

You are not ready to post your own until you have scripture to back you up,
can you not hint at what your thoughts are on the issue of birth control?

Have you never reached a conclusion yourself at your age?

I do take some exception to the way you have taken certain words I said and made them bold,thereby adding emphasis that I myself did not do.

Gen.3:16 Unto the woman he said,I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;

The multiplied sorrow is most noticeably seen in the recurring menstrual cycle and multiple forms of birth control are used to reduce the multiplied conceptions.

The Bible does not forbid contraception.It is not the act of contraception itself that determines whether it is right or wrong...it is the motive.

The Bible presents children as a gift from God,if a married christian couple practice birth control temporarily until they are more finanicial and spiritually secure and not because it would cramp their style to have kids, it is between them and God.
It comes down to motive.
Mrs Hayseed

[Amanda S.]

Yes, SIs Hayseed I have come to my own conclusion. And it is a matter of personal conviction, not necessarily a command for everyone.

I do agree with Sis JaeByrd above and have the resources to offer for anyone wishing to study out how the pill works and other forms of hormonal birthcontrol.

I see no reason why you should take exception to what was highlighted....? It was what I was referring to and what you said. It was only highlighted not to create an emphasis on what you said, but to draw attetion to why I asked the question I did.

I also agree with you as to the motive...That does make a big difference doesn't it?

Be blessed!

[greenbear]

JaeByrd

all forms of hormonal contraception can act as an abortifacient changing the uterine lining and preventing implantation of a fertilized egg

I was not aware of this. If this is true, of which I have no doubt, then the magnitude of babies' lives which have been sacrificed in western culture is hundreds or thousands of times greater than I had realized. I would agree with Mrs. Hayseed that christians don't have to have many, or any children. Natural birth control methods (used in conjunction with each other), i.e. Calendar Rythmn, Basal temperature, etc. can be safe, simple and moral. I have a strong aversion to medical quackery (almost the entire medical establishment) and would never consent to putting all of the chemicals, hormones and poisons in my body that they prescribe.

[greenbear]

I would also like to say that every single one of us has come out of the world system when we were saved. It doesn't matter if we were raised by godly parents in a Christian home or by junkies and prostitutes in a crack house, or any other circumstance, the Lord leads us progressively into truth when He saves us. He does not condemn us for our sins, whether they be committed willingly or in ignorance. I believe that when the Lord sees fit to reveal to us something in our lives that is displeasing to Him it is at that point that we become responsible for that sin. In this matter, His mercy is extended not only to the mother but also to the little baby that is brought directly into his presence. I'm sure everyone is familiar with David's words:

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Ezekiel 23:37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.

I hope somebody who has studied the topic of children dying before the age of accountability going to be with the Lord would be able to add something here. In any case, I am fully persuaded that the Judge of all the earth does right, in His judgment I trust.

INFANT SALVATION
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org...o/infantsa.htm

[JaeByrd]

Originally Posted by greenbear

JaeByrd

I was not aware of this. If this is true, of which I have no doubt, then the magnitude of babies' lives which have been sacrificed in western culture is hundreds or thousands of times greater than I had realized.

Most people aren't. I've known pastors to suggest to a young couple to go on this or that pill till you're ready. Here is a portion from an article Brandon and I wrote listing how the various "contraceptives" work.

Abortion: Life has already begun. You already know and have tested positive that you are pregnant.

IUD: Intrauterine device. This is a small plastic or metal device inserted into the cavity of the uterus through the vagina. Does not prevent conception from occurring. It creates a hostile environment in the uterus preventing implantation. In addition the IUD has been known to cause infection, repeated miscarriages and sterility.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration stated in an official report that its effectiveness is “in direct proportion to the quantity and quality of the inflammatory response which it engenders.” The report summarizes the various types of IUDs and the various theories of action, and states that there “is one common thread…” They all ” interfere in some manner with the implantation of the fertilized ovum in the uterine cavity.” (Second Report on IUD’s, Dec. 1978 U.S. Dept of HEW, Food and Drug Administration Document 017-012-00276-5)

RU-486: The same as an abortion, only this time without surgical procedures…It is taken after the mother misses her period and the baby is at least two weeks old. It cuts off an essential hormonal nutrient, progesterone, and the baby withers on the vine, dies and drops off. It has been tried as a once a month menses inducer, but has caused such an upset to her cycle and body rhythms, and has not prevented pregnancies, that such use has been abandoned. (Santen & Haspels, “Failure of RU-486 as a Monthly Contraceptive,” Contraception, vol. 35, no.5, May 1987, p. 433)

The Morning-After Pill: A high dosage of synthetic estrogen. This can work in one of two ways depending on where a woman is in her cycle. If a woman takes it prior to ovulation, the high level of estrogen should block that ovulation, preventing fertilization from happening. If it isn’t in time to prevent ovulation the estrogen will also change the lining of the uterus preventing a fertilized egg from implanting.

Combination Pill: Estrogen inhibits ovulation by suppressing hormones, fooling the body into thinking its already pregnant, thus an egg is not released. Because high doses of estrogen have caused medical problems, lower and lower dosages of estrogen are being used in pills today. The lower the estrogen, the more likely you are to have breakthrough ovulation. Progesterone inhibits ovulation, thickens cervical mucus impeding the travel of sperm to the uterus. If this were the only way the pill worked it would indeed be a contraceptive and not an abortifacient. But, the third way it works is changing the uterine lining so implantation of the fertilized egg into the endometrium does not occur.

“In a natural cycle, the uterus lining thickens under the influence of estrogen during the first part of the cycle, and then matures under the influence of both progesterone and estrogen after ovulation. This development sequence is not possible during a pill cycle because both progestin and estrogen are present throughout the cycle. EVEN IF OVULATION AND CONCEPTION DID OCCUR, SUCCESSFUL IMPLANTATION WOULD BE UNLIKELY” (Felicia Stewart, M.D.;Felicia Guest; Gary Stewart, M.D. and Robert Hatcher, M.D..; My Body, My Health, Consumers Union, pgs. 169,170).

Mini-Pill: Contains progesterone only. Inhibits ovulation, thickens cervical mucus, changes the lining of the uterus so that implantation does not happen should conception occur.

According to “Maternity & Gynecologic Care: The Nurse and the Family” by Irene M. Bobak, (RN,MS,PhD, FAAN, Professor Emerita, San Francisco State University), and Margaret Duncan Jensen, (RN,MS, Professor Emerita, San Jose State University: “Oral progestins. The mini-pill of 0.5 mg or less of a progestational agent daily presumably impairs fertility. Ovulation may occur. Progestational impact on cervical mucus decreases sperm penetration and alters endometrial maturation to discourage implantation should conception occur. (Fifth ed., published by Mosby, 1993, page 1313.)

Depo-Provera: Injectable form of Progestin taken every 3 months. (see Mini-Pill)

Nor-plant: Progestin Implant can be left in up to 5 years. (see Mini-Pill)

It is impossible to tell or say how often which mechanism works in any given cycle. Or how many times breakthrough ovulation occurs, conception takes place, and implantation is stopped. The risks are higher the lower the estrogen dose or with the progesterone only forms.

[George]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

The heading "The 95 theses of contention against dispensationalism" at the top of the page was enough to send me to the X to close that site.
It is obvious you hold a reformed position and you have stated that from the word go, that is your liberty.
However to anyone that may visit those links particularly "babes in Christ" may I urge you to take heed as it is entrenched in Calvinism.

While everyone is at liberty to post links to reformed websites and promotion of Calvinism, I too am also at liberty to promote material against this erroneous teaching, and may I recommend Laurence Vance's "The Other side of Calvinism" that a few other dear brothers have also recommended.

Aloha brother Steven,

Thanks for the "tip". I've always thought that no ordinary genuine Bible believer would choose such a pedantic name as "MR. RELIGION", and now I know why.

The "intelligentsia" (scribes & scholars) have a strong tendency to lean toward Calvinism, since it is a religion of the "MIND" (the "intellect") and NOT the "HEART" and most certainly not of the Holy Scriptures as brother Vance has demonstrated in his most excellent book refuting Calvinism, and as I did in my (not so excellent) expose here on the AV1611 Bible Forums.

All the "issues of life" proceed from out of the "heart" and NOT the "mind", and therein lays the "fatal flaw" of Calvinism.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

I'm not interested in modern day "theology"; and I have even less use for modern day "theologians, academicians, and others in theological fields."

I want to know what God has to say about Himself; His creation; mankind; His people; and the issues of life, NOT what some puffed up, egotistical, vain, and arrogant "theologian" thinks! Why do you suppose when the Lord Jesus picked His disciples that there wasn't a "scholar" or a "scribe" amongst them? Hmmm? {Just so no one's "sensitive feelings" are hurt - the foregoing comments are not directed specifically at any one person on this Forum - BUT, on the other hand, "if the shoe fits"!}

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Steven,

Thanks for the "tip". I've always thought that no ordinary genuine Bible believer would choose such a pedantic name as "MR. RELIGION", and now I know why.

The "intelligentsia" (scribes & scholars) have a strong tendency to lean toward Calvinism, since it is a religion of the "MIND" (the "intellect") and NOT the "HEART" and most certainly not of the Holy Scriptures as brother Vance has demonstrated in his most excellent book refuting Calvinism, and as I did in my (not so excellent) expose here on the AV1611 Bible Forums.

All the "issues of life" proceed from out of the "heart" and NOT the "mind", and therein lays the "fatal flaw" of Calvinism.I'm not interested in modern day "theology"; and I have even less use for modern day "theologians, academicians, and others in theological fields."

I want to know what God has to say about Himself; His creation; mankind; His people; and the issues of life, NOT what some puffed up, egotistical, vain, and arrogant "theologian" thinks! Why do you suppose when the Lord Jesus picked His disciples that there wasn't a "scholar" or a "scribe" amongst them? Hmmm? {Just so no one's "sensitive feelings" are hurt - the foregoing comments are not directed specifically at any one person on this Forum - BUT, on the other hand, "if the shoe fits"!}

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Dear Brother your study on the errors of Calvinism is also a fantastic resource, that I have printed, filed and shared. And also comes highly recommended to any babes in Christ that are struggling with the subject of Calvinism.