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#1
06-26-2009, 08:43 PM
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From corner one, I am waiting to find out if there is such a strict law of grace that it precludes believers from being saved if they don't perfectly understand that salvation is by grace alone, not of works of any kind (If such a strict standard applies then I was not saved for years after I thought I was). I don't know the answer. I will find out, God willing. What does the following quote from Winman's preacher mean? What I just said above or does it mean that this teacher thinks "hyperdispensationalism" allows for sin since we are under grace and excuses it? His argument about dividing the body of Christ, starving ego, recognition as a teacher, one-upmanship doesn't hold water for me. That is the argument of the status quo. It has no bearing on the truth; it's irrelevant. Quote:
Your posts here, Bro. Parrish and brother chette, show me that although you protest that salvation is of faith alone, you don't really believe it. Please tell me, how could you support this twisted teaching in this guys' sermon? Can't you see that his teaching is indicative of the false doctrine that has confused brother Winman? AMEN to that sermon??? It is so full of error and strawmen arguments I honestly don't know where to begin, but I'll start here: Quote:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. Quote:
Are you really going to say amen to a sermon filled with straw-man arguments? A word study on grace? This is elementary. God's grace is the only reason any human being is saved in any dispensation. Ten year old christians know this. Do I have to copy and paste Hebrews and James here? Is this one gospel only? Are you like Whirlwind? Will you defy the plain words of scripture for a private interpretation? Winman? Whirlwind was banned for questioning the inerrancy of the scriptures. What's the difference between this and that? Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; I have great respect for the likes of Ironside which you linked in another thread, Bro. Parrish. I'll be studying this, but I have to say that the arrogance, hostility and condemnation has not exactly been coming from Tonybones' corner. I have seen more kindness and charity come from this man than from some others on this board, I have to include myself in that. |
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#2
06-27-2009, 01:42 AM
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I can appreciate this preacher's opinions and his slanted view on it being "untenable", bless God yes it's "untenable" if he don't personally know one person in the movement, has never attended a Grace church and know nothing about us except through Harry Ironside, Peter Ruckman, or something he read somewhere written by someone who didn't know what they were talking about either. People asked me on the street ministry, what is a Grace dispensationsalist? My reply was we are fundamentalist independent Baptists who don't practice or teach water baptism. Now, what easier explanation can a person give? I belive the same "fundamentals" of the faith George, Brandon, and brother Parrish believes. To say A grace believer teaches that dispensationalism gives a license to sin is pure slander, in plain Jacobean English, it's a lie. I've never heard it. I've never taught it. I know I don't need to "confess" my sins, they were forgiven 2000 years ago, but dispensational teaching gives no Christian the license to go get blistering drunk in a bar. Have I ever given you a string of Scripture and then said, "Here Jen, believe what I do, it gives you a license to sin." I have the same album of recordings you do, did he say something I missed? Richard Jordan is the only man at this time I'd walk across the street to listen to a message being preached, is there somewhere he has preached that dispensationalism gives a license to sin? Has Cornelius Stam of the Bereans ever published anything that says that? My point and my conclusion is I've never heard this before, this is the first I ever heard that the Grace dispensational teaching gives a "license to sin". Oh, I know of the accusations since Day One that it "spilts churches". No one will give me the name of one church that was split by "hyperdispensationalism". Now, I'm not throwing stones at Brother Parrish, but I asked him this question in the Water Baptism thread when it stopped being a Scripture study and became a forum for Harry Ironside and Peter Ruckman's opinions, read his reply to me. I know in the late 80s-early 90s Jack Hyle's church, that was claimed to be "the largest fundamentalist, soul winning church in America" didn't split, it exploded, and not because of "hyperdispensationalism", but because Hyles got busted in the revelation that he had been having a "love" affair with his personal secretary for 20+ years. He must have been a Grace believer!!! John 11:35 Jesus wept. 1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. Thank you for your kind comments sister. Grace and peace to you, and brother Parrish, Win and Chette, and everyone reading this. Tony Last edited by tonybones2112; 06-27-2009 at 01:46 AM. Reason: typo |
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#3
06-27-2009, 08:12 AM
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There is actually an entire book at that link, with several chapters on the errors of the Hyperdispensational doctrine. Quote:
on your part, sister. Have you been attending Chette's royal college of hypocrisy? YES, I condemn false teaching. I also make a lot of encouraging and positive remarks here, but I will condemn false teaching. That is scriptural. If Ultras and Hypers don't want negative comments about their doctrinal errors and cheap stabs at Baptist preachers, then let them post their ideas on a private forum where no one can say a word. But I rarely make personal attacks or judgments about the people here, and I try not to call them "chickens or neanderthals" either.  Look, I made ONE POST ON THIS THREAD, and it was to Winman. If that constitutes arrogance, hostility and condemnation, perhaps the eggshells are getting too thin around here. Meanwhile Jennifer, while you have been over here judging me, Tony and I have been sharing hobbies over on another thread. So please don't ASSUME we are mortal enemies simply because we see the ordinance of believer's baptism differently. Besides, anyone who loves Apple computers can't be all bad. 
Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 06-27-2009 at 08:29 AM. |
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#4
06-27-2009, 08:28 AM
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#5
06-27-2009, 08:35 AM
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I'm sure Bill Gates would agree with you.
But then Bill always was a Hyper when it came to partitioning his hard drive in Vista.
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#6
06-27-2009, 10:14 AM
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Greenbear said;
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But I don't really understand what you are saying. You do not believe the scriptures were a progressive revelation? What scriptures did Job know? None. There were no scriptures in his day. At the time of Moses did books like Ezekiel or Nahum exist? No! God revealed the scriptures to various prophets over centuries of time. But the gospel has been there from the start when God promised Adam and Eve that he would put enmity between Eve's seed and the seed of the serpent. Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Who do you think this prophesy is about? It is about Jesus Christ of course. So from the very beginning God was foretelling of Jesus coming to save us from our sins. But not all details were given here, as time went by God revealed even more about Jesus. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. These scriptures were written centuries after Moses penned the Book of Genesis. You see more and more details about Jesus provided. Did Moses know Jesus would come from Bethlehem? No. But in Jesus day the scribes did know the Messiah would come from Bethlehem. Matt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. The priests and scribes back in David's day could not have told you that Jesus would come from Bethlehem, this information was not revealed until many centuries later by the prophet Micah. So how do you say that the scriptures were not a progressive revelation? And the gospel is the same. No, they did not understand that Jesus would live under the law, go to the cross for our sins, die, be buried, and rise from the dead. Oh, there were plenty of scriptures telling those very things, but they did not put them together. But the gospel was being shown from the very beginning. And this is why Paul said; Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. The scriptures themselves say the gospel was preached unto Abraham. And Jesus confirms this. John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Abraham knew about Jesus, Jesus said so himself. Abraham knew the gospel. Last edited by Winman; 06-27-2009 at 10:19 AM. |
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#7
06-27-2009, 02:12 PM
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Abel believed his own works could not cover sin. Job prophesied that after his skin worms destroy his body that he will in his flesh see God. He knew he would have to have a resurrected incorruptible body in the presence of the Lord. Abraham said to Isaac that God would provide himself a lamb. God showed David Christ's suffering on the cross. God told Daniel that he would die but that he would stand with his lot at the end of the days. Consider the message the angel Gabriel gave to Mary. It was only about the Messiah's role for Israel, nothing whatsoever to do with the gentiles. Luke 1:30-33 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. God's entire dealing with mankind from the fall of Adam through to eternity points to the cross of Christ either looking forward or backward. Every person who has ever lived or ever will live can only be saved because the Lamb of God was slain to take away the sins of the world. Men of faith throughout history have understood that God promised salvation to those who would believe what He says about Himself. The Jews expected Christ to establish his Kingdom at His coming. They didn't even foresee that Jesus had come to die let alone the setting aside of Israel and Paul's gospel to the gentiles. Paul did not receive his gospel from any progressive revelation. It was a mystery which God had kept secret since the world began. Eph*3:1 ¶ For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, Eph*3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph*3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph*3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph*3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph*3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Eph*3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Eph*3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph*3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph*3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph*3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph*3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph*3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. Eph*3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Eph*3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Eph*3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; Eph*3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Eph*3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; Eph*3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Eph*3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Eph*3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. When the fulness of the gentiles have come in then the seventieth week of Daniel starts where where the sixty-ninth week ended with Christ's birth. The church Christ's body will be evacuated from the earth and the Holy Spirit will no longer permanently indwell believers as He does now. During the tribulation any man who takes the mark of the beast or the number of his name will be lost forever. 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from every tribe will be sealed by the Holy Spirit and they cannot sin. Tribulation saints are told they have to endure to the end to be saved. An angel flies in the heaven announcing to men on earth at that time the "everlasting gospel": Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev 14:7 This is not the same gospel we are saved by now at this time. "Everlasting gospel" doesn't mean it is the one and only gospel that has ever existed throughout God's dealings with man. It is a specific gospel preached by an angel at that time. The blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world is the only method of salvation. There is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It is the programs that God uses to deal with men at certain times that change. In the present time we are born of the Spirit, sealed by the Holy Spirit, there is no law for us and that is completely unique from any other dispensation past or future. Last edited by greenbear; 06-27-2009 at 02:30 PM. |
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#8
06-27-2009, 02:40 PM
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You are correct, the Jews were looking for the Christ to come and reestablish the kingdom. But that is not why Jesus came at his first coming. Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. And that is the gospel right there. Just because the Jews did not fully understand the scriptures, does not change God's purposes. Take the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. He was reading the scriptures in Isaiah. He did not understand these scriptures, the meaning was a mystery to him. But Philip showed him these scriptures were about Jesus suffering and dying on the cross. Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. You see, these scriptures in Isaiah were always about Christ, but the Jews did not understand them, they were a mystery. That does not change the fact that this was the gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. There it is right there, that Jesus would come and die on the cross to save us from our sins. Just because the Jews did not understand this scripture does not mean it didn't exist or that God did not declare the gospel. If these scriptues were not about Jesus, then why does the scripture say that Philip began at that same scripture and preached unto him Jesus? To believe that something doesn't exist until you understand it is faulty logic. John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Remember, when Jesus said this not one word of the New Testament existed. Jesus told them the Old Testament testified of him. Just because some may not have understood this does not change this fact. |
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#9
06-27-2009, 04:02 PM
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The mystery was not that Christ had to die on the cross and there would be two comings. That information is already revealed in the old testament whether Israel as a nation understood the prophesies or not. The "mystery" is the gospel that Paul received directly from Jesus Christ. Jesus hinted at it with his pearl of great price parable but other than that I am not aware of anywhere it can be found before it was revealed to Paul. The gentiles who never had the law being directly indwelled by the Holy Spirit and put in His body completely apart from God's program for the Jews. Israel completely bypassed and set aside for a period of time! Paul's gospel of grace is completely new, has nothing whatsoever to do with the law that was committed to Israel. We are talking about the gospel of grace, not Christ crucified and His two comings. Paul's gospel of grace could not have existed along side God's program for the nation Israel. Paul's gospel of grace to the gentiles could not have existed along side Christ's Millennial Kingdom which would have started if Israel as a nation would have accepted Him after he was resurrected. It could only ever exist after national Israel rejected her messiah. It is completely removed from God's program with Israel which is the Law. Just because Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are called the gospels doesn't mean that Jesus coming a the God-Man, dying on the cross for the sins of the world, rising on the third day and ascending to the Father is the only gospel. We all know the gospel means good news. It just so happens that Paul's gospel is also a new dispensation. The scriptures clearly state in many places that there are different gospels, or different messages of good news. They are all incumbent upon the death and resurrection of Christ. Last edited by greenbear; 06-27-2009 at 04:32 PM. |
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#10
06-27-2009, 05:19 PM
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That is just not so. There are many prophesies in the Old Testament concerning the Gentiles.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. The root of Jesse is Jesus Christ. Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. And we know this is Jesus, because these verses are shown in Matthew. Matt 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16 And charged them that they should not make him known: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. There are many other verses besides these in the Old Testament that revealed the gospel would also be preached to the Gentiles. This is what is wrong with hyper-dispensationalism. You have the Bible so sliced and diced and cannot conceive of scripture or doctrine applying to more than one age. This is a great error of this type of teaching. There are many scriptures in the OT pointing to the gospel and that it would also be revealed to the Gentiles. Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. And in Romans Paul shows many such verses in the OT that applied to the Gentiles receiving the gospel. Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. This was Paul in Romans confirming that these OT scriptures foretold of the gospel being preached to the Gentiles. Last edited by Winman; 06-27-2009 at 05:39 PM. |
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