[Brother Tim]

From Wiki: [smilie mine ]

A bellwether is any entity in a given arena that serves to create or influence trends or to presage future happenings.

The term is derived from the Middle English bellewether and refers to the practice of placing a bell around the neck of a castrated ram (a wether) leading its flock of sheep. The movements of the flock could be noted by hearing the bell before the flock was in sight.

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Brandon and anyone else who wishes to chime in:

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Who is "all their flocks" referring to? Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????

And if all the points made previously as to the fact that a pastor is to feed the sheep and be an overseer, and leader then none of it makes any sense? How does a sheep feed another sheep?? How does he care for the flock if he is one of the flock so to speak? In another place Paul says

1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

A rod? So, he's not a shepherd, but God let's him use His rod? (Figuratively speaking)

And how come most of the verses with pastor in it also have a reference to sheep? There must be some connection there?


Again in Jeremiah 23:1-4
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.


I thought the Lord was the only shepherd?!


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One shepherd? As opposed to how many other shepherds? Who are these other shepherds?


Obviously all of you know that the very definition of pastor is shepherd. It IS what is means, but that doesn't seem to be admissible.

I am honestly trying to understand the reasoning. I have never heard this taught such a way.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

Who is "all their flocks" referring to?

Have you ever called your church "my church?" Does that mean it is under you or that you are somehow separate from everyone else in the church?

You asked for the definition of pastor, and I gave you the closest thing the Bible has to a definition of the word.

Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????

That sentence makes no sense to me. I don't understand what you are asking, since I maintain that the pastor is not a shepherd -- unless you are reading a modern non-KJV (think about that for a minute!).

And if all the points made previously as to the fact that a pastor is to feed the sheep and be an overseer, and leader then none of it makes any sense? How does a sheep feed another sheep?? How does he care for the flock if he is one of the flock so to speak? In another place Paul says

And here is the crux of the matter: you are trying to defend Nicolaism and set the pastor as someone separate from the church he is supposed to be serving.

1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

A rod? So, he's not a shepherd, but God let's him use His rod? (Figuratively speaking)

I'm no shepherd, yet the Bible tells me to use a rod (Pr 23:13). Also, nobody alive today is in the same position Paul was in, so the comparison doesn't stand. (Also, I wonder if you could find a verse that ever calls Paul a pastor.)

And how come most of the verses with pastor in it also have a reference to sheep? There must be some connection there?

Of course there is a connection. That doesn't make pastor synonymous with shepherd.

Again in Jeremiah 23:1-4
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

You're not seriously applying these verses about Israel to the Church, are you? Besides, that passage proves pastors and shepherds are different.

The pastors are replaced with shepherds in the passage you quote.

I thought the Lord was the only shepherd?!

Insofar as the Body of Christ is concerned, he is the only one called a shepherd. (My prior statements should be understood in that context -- sorry if I wasn't clear enough.)

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This verse also gives a hint as to the difference between Israel and the Church. Of which are you?

Obviously all of you know that the very definition of pastor is shepherd.

There you go again, using that word. Obviously, it is not obvious.

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Brandon,

I am not trying to defend anything, but understand the thought process. Now that I've exhausted all the Scripture on the subject, I feel as if I understand your position.

You Quote:
Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????
That sentence makes no sense to me. I don't understand what you are asking, since I maintain that the pastor is not a shepherd -- unless you are reading a modern non-KJV (think about that for a minute!).

Well, with the "my church" comment I see how you come to read that passage as you do.

I read nothing but a KJB...

I am not intending to defend any position at this point. Just wanting to know how you read the passages as opposed to how I've understood them. I honestly have never used the term shepherd in reference to any pastor and I don't think I've heard it used many times in the churches I am in.

And here is the crux of the matter: you are trying to defend Nicolaism and set the pastor as someone separate from the church he is supposed to be serving.

I can see how you would think that, but honestly I don't believe that. LoL I'm not even sure I can correctly pronounce that. I have not disagreed at all with anyone's duties of a pastor, elder or deacon and George did a great study on the church that I agreed with wholeheartedly (until the end in which I need to process a bit more )

Being a pastor's wife for 10+ yrs I am very well aquainted with the "position" of a pastor and being a servant to the people, an ensample and have seen my husband lead humbly yet with authority when teaching the Bible. Bro. Brandon I don't think we would disagree on that topic.

You're not seriously applying these verses about Israel to the Church, are you? Besides, that passage proves pastors and shepherds are different.

No not applying them, but pulling out all the stops so to speak LoL And I see what you are saying, pastor is one - shepherd is another.

Thank you, I've no more questions...................tonight

[JaeByrd]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

From Wiki: [smilie mine ]

They don't always castrate them. Depends on the flock dynamics. Sometimes the bellwether is an ewe. Doesn't mean I'm advocating females in roles of leadership.

With all the talk of sheep, flocks, and shepherds it was interesting to read about them the workings of a sheep farm. I found some interesting observations from sheepherders talking about this very subject.