[larryb]

Originally Posted by chette777

Larry

do you believe the King James Bible is a pure preserved inspired word of God?

without error?

I believe that the texts underlying the KJV are pure, preserved, and infallible.

Further, i believe that the KJV is a faithful translation of those underlying texts, and is therefore also pure, preserved (for the English speaking peoples), and infallible.

[bibleprotector]

Originally Posted by larryb

I believe that the texts underlying the KJV are pure, preserved, and infallible.

The Word of God has been pure, preserved and infallible in Hebrew and Greek. But plenty of Protestants, Puritans and us today have not seen or used the Hebrew and Greek.

The problem is that there is no Hebrew text which is in one volume somewhere on earth right now which is perfect. The same for the New Testament in Greek.

Now, if you will receive it, the Scripture says:

Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Do you realise that NATIONS are supposed to be obedient to the very words of God? How can that be, if there are differences in Textus Receptus editions? Surely, the solution must be that in the latter days glory of the Church, there would be one Bible made common for believers.

And you will find that English Puritans believed that they were directly part of this providential working of God.

Again, why turn back to Hebrew, when it is the Protestant Christians of the latter days who have the highest truth. Even Puritans like Joseph Mede recognised this, when he spoke of the witnessing to the Jews in the latter days.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Therefore, the Scripture is not locked in or limited to or authoritative only merely in the original languages, but that the Church, particularly that which is of the Anglo-Protestant tradition, and the King James Bible best fits, that it should be the way by which the furtherest inroads into the world should be made by the Gospel in the latter days, as has already been seen since the Reformation.

Originally Posted by larryb

Further, i believe that the KJV is a faithful translation of those underlying texts, and is therefore also pure, preserved (for the English speaking peoples), and infallible.

Since the King James Bible is an independent text, it can only be said to be faithful to the autographs, for that there are variations among the original language copies which exist. Therefore, the authority of Scripture cannot be merely based on its faithfulness to the past, but that it also is presently shown by signal providences to be the Word of God. No one is saved by believing in the Autographs. If you look at 1 Peter 1:23, 25, people are saved by believing the Word right now.

By examining the KJB on its own terms you will see that it is self-validating, self-authenticating. Yes, many have said it is a good Bible, and the best translation, but we should see that it is the very Word of God today, and that if the original languages were no longer understood (as they increasingly are MISunderstood the more modernists work with them), we can be certain that God has not failed to deliver His Word to the end of the world, and to the ends of the earth, that is, by the King James Bible itself.

It is possible for us to show the purity of the King James Bible by studying the King James Bible right now.

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

I know this may take us afield a bit, but I do have two questions for Matthew.

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

there is no Hebrew text which is in one volume somewhere on earth right now which is perfect. The same for the New Testament in Greek.

Is this an assertion that you feel is provable, that you can prove ? Please share precisely what is the basis for your saying with certainty that that no volume on earth today in Greek or Hebrew is the perfect word of God.

(Perhaps your point is that the Hebrew would be imperfect on the NT, and similarly the Greek would be imperfect on the OT, however that is not at all clear from what you wrote.)

Thanks.

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

Even Puritans like Joseph Mede recognised this, when he spoke of the witnessing to the Jews in the latter days.
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

If you could share the book and page reference, it would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Steven

[bibleprotector]

there is no Hebrew text which is in one volume somewhere on earth right now which is perfect. The same for the New Testament in Greek.

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Is this an assertion that you feel is provable, that you can prove ? Please share precisely what is the basis for your saying with certainty that that no volume on earth today in Greek or Hebrew is the perfect word of God.

What I am saying is that it cannot be certainly proved that there is one single volume on earth which right now is perfect of either testament in its respective original language. In fact, it appears that every edition we know of does differ to the King James Bible.

By perfect, I mean "exemplar" perfect, in that there are prefectly adequet and sufficent copies of Scripture in the original languages, but beyond that, we cannot say certainly that one edition is "the standard".

This means that other translations and so on are the Word of God, even though they might not match the King James Bible fully. The point is that while they might be sufficient, it is better and right to rely upon that which we know is "exemplar" perfect. The KJB is it.

On the lack of citation of Joseph Mede, this is because I have a text file from Clovis Apocyl. which has no page numbers.

There are several quotes from several authors which indicate that the Christian evangelisation of the Jews would take place in the latter days glory of the Church, of which I have some quotes at hand, but there are more:

It is in this darkness that we find the sixth vial brings the next calamity: “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.” (Revelation 16:12).

Already in the 1630s, Joseph Mede had some understanding what the prophecy of the “kings of the east” was referring to:

“That is, the Church of Christ, as it was about to become double by the conversion of Israel” (Mede.)

“The sixth phial will be poured out on the great river Euphrates; so that, being dried up, a passage may be prepared for the new enemies of the beast to come from the Last, that is, for the Israelites, wonderfully converted to the pure faith and Worship of Christ, and now become candidates for the kingdom promised for so many ages. Whom the followers of the beast [Romanism], perhaps, may be inclined to consider as the army of their fictitious antichrist, to arise from the Jews, of whom they do not Hesitate to assert, that even we of this day are the forerunners. God thus avenging their obstinacy in error.” (Mede.)

“Whatever it may be, their obstruction being removed, the way of approach is by some means said to be prepared for these new Christians from the East, and that, as it appears, for the purpose of undertaking an expedition against the beast, to whose destruction all the phials are subservient. For whence otherwise, and for what reason, should such a trepidation and panic seize upon the followers of the beast, and even the demons themselves, from the time of the drying up of the river, as to occasion such a horrible and unheard-of preparation for war as is here described; unless they, with the whole diabolical cohort, feared every extremity from the accession of the new kings of the East?” (Mede.)

The historicist commentator Barnes speculated, “in accordance with what is so often said in the prophets, that under the gospel kings and princes would consecrate themselves and their wealth to God. See Psalm 72:10, 11, ‘The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.’ So also Isaiah 40:4–6, 9, 11, [summarised], ‘Thy sons shall come from far.—The forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.—All they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense.—The isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them.—Thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.’ All that is fairly implied in the language used here is, that the kings of the east would be converted to the true religion...”

The historicist theologian Bishop Newton conjectured that the Roman Catholic response would be manifest in the tribulation, “Whoever they be, they appear to threaten the ruin and destruction of the Kingdom of the beast: and therefore the agents and emissaries of popery ... are employed to oppose them, and stir up the princes and potentates of their communion to make their united and lad effort in a religious war. Of necessity there must be times of great trouble and affliction ... Armageddon”.

See also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnGvFzy94t4

Here is a quote from Oliver Cromwell, Speech the First, 1653, "This being so, truly it puts me in mind of another Scripture, that famous Psalm, sixty-eighth Psalm ; l which indeed is a glorious prophecy, I am persuaded, of the Gospel churches, it may be, of the Jews also. There it prophesies that He will bring His people again from the depths of the sea, as once He led " Israel through the Red Sea." And it may be, as some think, God will bring the Jews home to their station from the isles of the sea, and answer their expectations as from the depths of the sea. But, at all events, sure I am, when the Lord shall set up the glory of the Gospel Church, it shall be a gathering of people as out of deep waters, out of the multitude of waters t such are His people, drawn out of the multitudes of the nations and people of this world. And truly that Psalm is very glorious in many other parts of it : when He gave the word, great was the company of them that published it. Kings of armies did flee apace, and she that tarried at home divided the spoil; and " Although ye have lain among the pots, yet shall ye " be as the wings of a dove, covered with silver, and her feathers " with yellow gold." And indeed the triumph of that Psalm is exceeding high and great ; and God is accomplishing it."

I found another Mede quote:

"That testimony of Amos, quoted by James in the Council of the Apostles, Acts, c. xv. (not to notice this likewise), seems to have been intended of the anticipated of the anticipated conversion of the Gentiles, i. e. of that which would precede the restoration of the Jews; and on that account... the same inference may he collected of the anticipated adoption of the Gentiles among the people of God, namely, in this sense, that the Jews being brought back, when the tabernacle of David, which had fallen down, should at last be restored"