[Just_A_Thought]

BP,

Did you go to the Summit or just commenting of the article you linked to? I am wanting to hear the Summit but they still have not posted it on the HAC site. I will keep waiting unless you have a link to a place that it is already posted.

[bibleprotector]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Thought

BP,

Did you go to the Summit or just commenting of the article you linked to? I am wanting to hear the Summit but they still have not posted it on the HAC site. I will keep waiting unless you have a link to a place that it is already posted.

I know you are anti-KJBO. I also know that you are trying to "win us over" to your position, which you confess is "anti-KJBO'ism". Source: http://www.fundamentalforums.com/bib...ollessons.html

Anyway, the KJB summit videos are here, as you already know:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

[bibleprotector]

SOME ISSUES WITH DR BOB MARSHALL’S
THIRD SESSION OF THE HAC KJB SUMMIT JULY 2009

1. Marshall said, in his opening remarks, “It seems logical to me that if God is going to get the Word that brings salvation to everybody, then it has to be in a host of languages that are quite innumerable”. “Sometimes we elevate the English language as though it is the premier container [language] to take the Word of God to this world, no, it ought to be in hundreds and thousands of witnesses all across the world, and all across the globe.”

The more logical position is to see that, in time, God is providentially raising up one global language, and has one principle and exemplar Bible, the King James Bible, made common and standard for all the world. This would mean not explicitly emphasising other translations, which do, on examination, differ to the King James Bible.

This may be seen by a variety of verses, such as,

“So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.” (Isaiah 59:19).

“All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.” (Isaiah 18:3).

“For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.” (Isaiah 28:11).

“For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” (Zephaniah 3:9).

“Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.” (Isaiah 34:16).

2. “Those 227 years [from Wycliffe to the King James Bible] were filled with translating and editing and revising and perfecting and polishing the English text”.

Since there is no direct lineage between the translation of Wycliffe, and the beginning of the seven major Protestant English translations starting from Tyndale, it is much better argued, and consistent with the translators’ own words, as well as the facts concerning the direct history of the King James Bible, that there is an accord between the historical fact of seven major Protestant English translations and the prophecy in Psalm twelve concerning the seven times of purification. This therefore excludes Wycliffe’s Version, and shortens the particular timescale involved.

3. The King James Bible was considered was a revision of former Protestant English translations, as the translators themselves stated, “but let us rather bless God from the ground of our heart for working this religious care in him to have the translations of the Bible maturely considered of and examined. For by this means it cometh to pass, that whatsoever is sound already, (and all is sound for substance in one or other of our editions, and the worst of ours far better than their authentick Vulgar) the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also, if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place.” And, “No cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word, or forbidden to be current, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting forth of it.”

Marshall states that the translations had error in them, and then asks, “If you consider each of the predecessors to the KJ Bible — Tyndale, Coverdale, Geneva, Matthew’s, Great ... or the Bishops’ Bible — as ‘inspired’, preserved English words of God, then why would they need to be changed or updated, edited and corrected by many revisions and editions, yet they were considered the word of God?”

This is the exact question which someone who holds exclusively to the King James Bible should be able to answer:

i. The Word of God was sufficiently given in the various texts of the six major Protestant English Bibles,
ii. The Word of God was sufficiently translated, that is, sufficient of the true sense was given in English,
iii. The text was, overall, refined or purified generally successively,
iv. The translation was, overall, refined or purified generally successively,
v. Any and all editions of these versions had presentation issues,
vi. The King James Bible was the culmination of the purification of the text, translation, taken from a holistic view of these former works, and supersuccessionary, and
vi. The King James Bible, when first printed, presented the final text and translation of the Word of God in English, set forth for all the world, despite the presentational issues in the English in the first printing of 1611.

Clearly, another issue is here. Inspiration is a one off process that occurred in the initial writing of the Scripture. The inspired words were then retained by God’s providential preservation. Thus, any time men of God, in the providential continuum, translated, they were handling the inspired words.

The point is that the King James Bible men are unique as translators — they were not inspired — but they were the vessels of God’s preservation to be able to gather correctly the entire text of Scripture perfectly, that is, to form the exact version of the entire Bible, which matches word for word what was inspired in 66 books (i.e. piecemeal). And, the same men were able to render properly, sense for sense, for the first and only time ever in history, by virtue of a translation no less, sense for sense, the exact meaning of the words that were first written in the Autographs, giving them in one Bible which would be in a language which would become global. Thus, the King James Bible translators were not inspired. They were not making an inspired translation. They were, in fact, re-amassing exactly into one exemplar and standard form what would be the supersuccessionary singular Bible for all the world in the latter days. (The inspired words came via copies, and appear in the KJB.)

The KJB men were able to get it right simply because in God’s plan they were the right people at the right time in the right place with the right materials who were able to collectively judge rightly what actually is the Word of God. We have the same Bible today as was first printed in 1611, that is, the same text and translation.

Thus, not only can we say that the inspired Scripture was sufficiently present in the King James Bible, which has been enough to call any proper and normal copy or translation of the Scripture “the Word of God”, but that it has the very words of God exactly, thus, is the inspired Scripture exactly, fully, utterly and totally.

4. Marshall claims, “the translators ... weren’t flawless and didn’t consider themselves above revision”.

The word “revision” has two meanings. Either it could mean revision of text and translation, or revision in regards to the English presentation. It is a fact that there is no explicit reference by the translators which regards the King James Bible as “flawed”, nor that they allow in any way, revision of the text and translation.

In fact, the revisionary work that has taken place in regards to the King James Bible, whether by the translators themselves, or other learned editors, never really amounts to a change in the underlying text and translation, and on the few very minor occasions where there appears to be a difference which may also be observed in variations in the underlying original language editions, it is quite easy and simple to argue at least most of the times that such a variation is due to a printing mistake in the first edition.

5. Marshall claims, “They did not think they were creating a new ‘final authority’ in English to replace the Greek and Hebrew from which all translation should conform.”

There are several points here.

A. The translators did see the King James Bible as final.

They write, “that out of the Original Sacred Tongues, together with comparing of the labours, both in our own, and other foreign Languages, of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact Translation of the holy Scriptures into the English Tongue”.

They must have viewed their work ass one more, implying last, and exact, meaning that nothing further can be done. The phrase “one more exact translation” must mean finality in both execution of making of Bibles, and finality in the exactness of the message communicated in English.

This led them to state, “And now at last, by the mercy of God, and the continuance of our labours, it being brought unto such a conclusion, as that we have great hopes that the Church of England shall reap good fruit thereby”.

The good fruit would not be reaped from Hebrew and Greek learning, but from the knowledge of God’s Word in English.

B. There is no final authority in the Hebrew and in the Greek.

There is not one extant copy of the Hebrew OT, nor Greek NT which matches what was first inspired. Moreover, every edition of the Textus Receptus differs to every other one. Thus, there is no final perfect standard exemplar copy of the Scripture in Greek, or in Hebrew today.

However, there is one in English. “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read” (Isaiah 34:16a).

The King James Bible is supersuccessionary to the Hebrew and Greek.

Isa 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
Isa 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

C. The King James Bible, while not explicitly seen to be supersuccessionary to all translations, was not prohibited from, or excluded from being so, in line with God’s providence.

6. Marshall claims that the KJB translators “considered the Hebrew of the OT and the Greek of the NT to be the Final Authority”.

In fact, they considered received Scripture, and therefore what was preserved of what was inspired, to be final authority, and went beyond the confines of what could be seen in Hebrew and Greek, also considering other versions, commentaries, testimonies, translations, etc. This is because the Scripture RECEIVED was Scripture indeed, nor merely a narrow dereference to the words of Hebrew and Greek only.

True translation is to bring the fulness of what was there in those original languages into the final form, English, so that the English-speaker may confidently rely upon the Word of God in English without ever having to reference those former tongues again. This is because God was able to, by His Providence, supply the full Word in English, and is not so weak that He is shackled to the original languages yet, nor that we should only find full confidence if we come to understand the original tongues. This would manifestly be a blight against the very principles of the Reformation, that is, to have God’s very Word in the common tongue, furthermore having, in the Restitution of the Church in the latter days, God’s Word in English for all, unto all, and one.

7. Marshall claims that the marginal references contain “alternate renderings” and “suggestions” which he interprets to “suggest that they as translators were not the final authority”.

The problem here is that the margins are not alternate, nor equal, nor do they indicate the actual uncertain state of the Scripture as presented in the King James Bible. This can be clearly seen on two lines:

First, that the translators chose which rendering to put in the main text, and what else to put in the margin, delineating clearly between their collective judgment as to what was Scripture, and what was not as fit.

Second, that since that time, the tacit and avowed acceptance of millions of Christians and scholars has been vastly in favour of the translators’ decisions both in general, and if taken on a case by case examination, that what stands as the main reading is the true, and what stands in the margin is simply not the best, rightest or most agreeable.

8. Marshall states, “It is obvious that the men who made up the Hampton Court” — actually, that was a location, and a conference held there years before in regards to Puritanism, so it should say, “translation committees” — “as well as previous editors and translators, felt that the doctrine of preservation was not an event but a constant journey pursuing a complete container (English language) for the words of God.”

While preservation and received tradition are ongoing, the making of the English Bible is finite. Psalm twelve expressly states “seven times”. This is a finite process with a fixed result.

There were seven major English Protestant Bibles. There cannot be any more.

Likewise, the purification of the King James Bible was limited; limited both in scope and in application. The correcting of typographical errors, or the standardising of English was a finite process which resulted in a particular conclusion.

There is no ongoing evolution of the English Bible.

To suggest such is to be dangerously close to the modernist side of the Bible Version issue.

If the English Bible is subject to some sort of evolution of the English langauge, then God is weak, natural forces are in control and error is rampent.

If the English Bible is subject to the originals, the problem is that the originals are actually in a state of flux, because the actual form of them is unknown and subject to endless controversy. There is no real authority anywhere today which can change the King James Bible, not even to alter one jot or one tittle in our present edition.

9. “Or, did He give us a firm foundation of inerrant and infallible words in the original languages and say, ‘Here, take these, and get it into every language’?”

This implies that the Scripture is not inerrant nor infallible in the King James Bible, and that one of the varying copies and editions in the original languages is the standard form of the Scripture. The problem is that no such copy in the originals is identified today as the final authority.

10. Marshall argues that the printers made mistakes, and implies on that basis that the translators of 1611 must have made mistakes. (Marshall certainly does not state that the translators got it 100% right.)

While the 1604–1611 translators were not inspired, and that the King James Bible was not made by inspiration, it is true that it is inerrant and infallible. This is because the words are inerrant and infallible. The translators were merely men, yet it was such, that by God’s providence, they were able to get the text and translation right, as a seemingly natural process, as an outworking of God’s providential preservation, not as a new “supernatural” inspiration.

11. Marshall quotes the unbeliever Scrivener on the editions of the King James Bible, as though God’s providence has failed to keep the King James Bible through its history, so that “oversight and negligence” are manifest, and that the King James Bible in its subsequent history from 1611 was merely the work of men, exhibiting numerous errors, “from which no work of man can be entirely free”.

This is an entirely false and unbelieving view of the history of the King James Bible, because if God had managed to preserve Scripture to 1611, and give His Word in English by then, surely He would have preserved it since!

In reality, the proper line of editions of the KJB have served as the method by which God, in His Providence, has worked to free the presentation of KJB editions from errors and impurities.

12. Marshall discusses translational variations while discussing typographical errors in the King James Bible.

These are two entirely separate issues. A mistake in printing does not mean that the translators of 1611 were also subject to mistakes in their collective judgment.

13. Marshall speaks of the adherence to the standard, the Hebrew and the Greek, in regards to looking at editions of the KJB.

It is evident that when an editor worked on the King James Bible, that he did not regard the Hebrew and Greek as the final authority, but viewed the received tradition, compared various major editions, regarded the first printed edition, perhaps the translators’ master if it were available, but there is no explicit mention or evidence that the original languages were looked to in this regard, except for the work on the italics and margins.

14. Marshall claims that errors of the press began to accumulate in Barker’s early editions.

In reality, even under Barker, corrections were continually being made, both in disregarding errors which crept into particular editions, and also general work which improved upon what was printed in 1611, though with other errors being made in the new editions. These errors were disregarded in further editions. Thus, the King James Bible was not in a hopeless case from 1611 to 1629, even though Barker made mistakes.

15. Marshall claims that two translators were involved in the 1629 Cambridge Edition.

In fact, it is unknown who the editors of the 1629 Cambridge Edition were.

16. Marshall, in obviously following David Norton’s material, claims that “shamefacedness” is different to “shamefastness” at 1 Timothy 2:9. He then says that he does not think that “shamefacedness” is right.

In reality, they are two spellings of the same word. This can be shown from Johnson's Dictionary, which gives "shamefacedness", even when quoting sources (e.g. Shakespeare) which spelt "shamefastness". The modern distinguishing of meanings cannot be applied unhistorically to the King James Bible.

Marshall actually corrects the King James Bible by willingly rejecting the received tradition.

17. Marshall says, “If you have a Bible that is inerrant, if your English translation is inerrant, that means there was no pressmen ever to misspell a word”.

This is a false leap of logic. Inerrancy of the Scripture, along with inerrancy of the text and translation in English, is entirely different from having a scrupulously correct printing of the Bible.

In reality, through the process of purification, it has been possible to arrive at a knowledge of a certain and finite English text-form of the King James Bible which is free from press errors.

Arriving at a printed text free from typographical errors has first required arriving at the final and pure edition of the King James Bible. The Pure Cambridge Edition.

Therefore, a translation can be error-free because printing errors are not translation errors, and in the case of the King James Bible, we now have the King James Bible free from press errors. Moreover, the same translation is apparent throughout all editions, the present final one being the same as the first one of 1611.

18. He says, “You cannot say a translation is error-free as long as you inject human instrumentality into the production of it.”

This is entirely false. The King James Bible was a correct translation, despite the printers making mistakes.

It is false to imply that printing errors necessitates that the translators also made errors.

It is false to imply that the translation cannot be known because of typographical presentational issues, or to imply that a translation is marred (irreparably) by printers’ errors.

Translation (the work of the 1611 men) and the printing (the work of printers) are two separate things. The press has not had the power to destroy or stop the work of the 1611 men.

If the press did wrongly, or if editors persist with something wrong, it does potentially cause there to be an impediment. However, God has worked to ensure that no impediment actually can justly stand.

Consider the case of the word “Spirit” in Matthew 4:1. The issue with an impure edition of the King James Bible has not been enough to stop the reality that “Spirit” is both meant by the translators, and is the proper form today (Cambridge). In other words, no matter what, in time, God manifested providentially through the providential preservation by editors that the correct presentation of the King James Bible would be made manifest.

While such variations do not, in their historical context, actually mar the meaning of the Scripture, there is obviously a problem where in the present time people argue for the impure, or depart from purity, which requires the rejecting of the received tradition, and departing from what has the signal providences concerning its legitimacy.

19. Marshall says he disagrees with the statement that “the current edition of the King James Version is, as far as the text is concerned, IDENTICAL to the intended original edition.”

Since the King James Bible has not undergone changes in the underlying version text and translation, then what was intended in 1611 is clearly the same today, regardless of typographical errors in the first printing of 1611, the standardisation of the English language, and other editorial regularisation.

Thus, we do have an identical text and translation. The differences in presentation, of course, mean that our presentation is not identical. But we cannot confuse the work of the translators with the issues of presentation (even though the translators themselves probably spelt words as differently as the 1611 men did.)

20. Marshall claims that if we reject the originals, then we have no standard to judge future editions of the King James Bible.

The truth is that God has supplied a standard edition of the King James Bible, by which all other editions may be judged. While it has not been wrong for people to check the correctness of the King James Bible to the original languages, there is no need to continue that trend, on the grounds that there is no final exemplar copy or known extant standard in the originals of either Testament, and that there has been so much vindication of the King James Bible, that it is no longer needful to be on such ground. Moreover, the making of proper revised editions of the King James Bible has long ago come to its conclusion, that is, fulfilling a sevenfold timescale according to Psalm 12, so that we have our final standard edition in our hands. There is no particular need to defer to the originals, or to present understanding of the originals, in regards to our trust and certainty in the Scripture, to the power of Scripture to save, and to any other work of Scripture in the coming hours, for that the Word of God is being made manifest to the world in a supersuccessionary form means the laying aside of former things.

Just as when Enoch was translated, so that nothing of Enoch was left behind, so we can see the Word of God translated, as we have it in our final worldwide Bible, does not in any way direct us to look back to the originals from whence it formerly abode. It is not beyond the seas or in the depths, nor hidden away, but manifestly in English that we might see it, hear it and believe it.

Closing remarks. Marshall does correctly show that there are indeed revisions of the King James Bible, but grossly understates the numbers, there are something like 4000 apparent word differences between 1611 and the present time. None of these differences constitutes a real change in the KJB.

[bibleprotector]

In the fourth session, a visibly nervous Ken Schaap, tries to explain that (various of) the differences in editions of the King James Bible are “translation changes”, and that changes are the results of “retranslations”. He makes many mistakes, both in his manner and in the facts which he gives, indicating that he is not confident on the topic, and bewraying the fact that he does not really know what he is speaking about.

He makes some astonishing false statements, based on his ignorance, such as, “Therefore, what the translators did in 1611 was not complete, because it was missing 47 words”. In reality, the version text and translation were complete, and the translators cannot be charged with producing an inferior work. He makes the erroneous assumption that what is printed in 1611 must be the translators’ intended work as far as every last detail of the presentation. But since it is clear that the translators did not intend nor were the authors of the printing errors, already it can be pointed out that the translators cannot be summarily be blamed for doing an incomplete work.

He argues: 1. Words were added later. 2. Therefore the 1611 translators’ work was incomplete. 3. Therefore the translators were not inspired. This is entirely an incorrect line of reasoning. The reality is that the translators were not inspired, but that has nothing to do with the purification of the presentation in later editions. The truth is that the translators got the text and translation right, and that the kind of work that was required in the King James Bible was in regards to the accurate printing, standardised language and regularised presentation (e.g. italics and other consistencies). In short, presentation issues cannot be used to accuse the translators of making a wrong translation! This is because it is possible to argue that a right translation was made, without any requirement for “inspiration” to ensure it. Moreover, if the translation was right, there is no need anymore to uphold the original languages as an authority, whereas if we do not yet have or know whether or not we have the Word of God exactly in English, then (just as the modern versionists) we must be dependant on the error-based claims of those who emphasise the original languages.

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

and bewraying the fact that he does not really know what he is speaking about.

Amen.. and a very nice example of the King James Bible vocabulary adding to the richness of today's English. I really appreciated the sharing on the distinction between betray and bewray.

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

He makes some astonishing false statements ... “Therefore, what the translators did in 1611 was not complete, because it was missing 47 words”. In reality, the version text and translation were complete, and the translators cannot be charged with producing an inferior work.

And if Luke or Peter misspelled a word, or gave a word that was clarified by an amenusis, does that mean that should be accused of uninspiration ? I trow not ! It is the whole process of giving scripture that is inspired of God. :

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And thus every individual who is a part of this process is a part of the inspiration process. Trying to fragment and dissect against this process, which has given us the fully pure and perfect King James Bible, is only the wiles of men.

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

He makes the erroneous assumption that what is printed in 1611 must be the translators’ intended work as far as every last detail of the presentation. But since it is clear that the translators did not intend nor were the authors of the printing errors, already it can be pointed out that the translators cannot be summarily be blamed for doing an incomplete work.

There should be no "blame" even if the King James Bible was perfected more excellently in 1629 or 1638 or any other time. The process of the giving of scripture involved many ages and men, the King James Bible translators of 1611 being one central fulcrum, the Bible authors and their helpers another, and many others, known and unknown. Tyndale and the Geneva Bible translators and the TR labourers and many others (at the times of the NT authors and later) can be considered a part of the whole process.

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

He argues: 1. Words were added later. 2. Therefore the 1611 translators’ work was incomplete. 3. Therefore the translators were not inspired.

And thus, if Luke or Peter or Isaiah omitted a word that was corrected by their friend, or postal companion, or translator or another, they were not inspired ? This question arises whether the enhancement or correction arises an hour later, or a week or a year or a decade or a century. Perhaps Mark wrote in Latin or Greaco-Latin and a later Greek translator did some vocabularly tweaking, adjusment, formalization. Do summit-men claim that all such transmission possibilities are impossible ? On what basis ? (If so .. perhaps The declarations of Warfield.)

Overall, I can understand a little better the hesitation to apply "inspiration" to the men used of God rather than to scripture. Something at least to consider. However in that case we have a category error (in the attempt to un-inspire the 1611 work and men) -- rather than an accusation against the King James Bible. The KJB 1611 is scripture, therefore according to Timothy it is given by inspiration of God.

As I have explained above, I also do not think we have any need to claim absolute perfection (putting aside the presentation issues) in the extremely pure 1611 King James Bible. Having absolute perfection in the pure Bible in our hands, such as many regard the PCE, is both wonderful and the basic need. The KJB 1611 labours have been, clearly, one major part of this pure Bible process. King James Bible defenders I believe help themselves and others when they emphasize the whole process of the Reformation Bible, the pure word of God, leading unto the purest "Received Text", the King James Bible, giving us, the ploughman and even the scholar the pure word of God, 100% pure and perfect, inspired and preserved. Thank you Lord Jesus for your pure word.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

[Just_A_Thought]

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

I know you are anti-KJBO. I also know that you are trying to "win us over" to your position, which you confess is "anti-KJBO'ism". Source: http://www.fundamentalforums.com/bib...ollessons.html

Anyway, the KJB summit videos are here, as you already know:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

True...

True again but not so much here. People here simply get mad when I chat with them on the subject.

The summit video is now out. It was not when I asked you. You were making comments on the summit as if you listened to it in detail and I wanted to know where you heard it.

I am not sure why you feel I am your enemy because I am anti-KJVO. I am a Christian and do not feel you are my enemy. Seems like we could both agree to disagree on the subject and move on.

God Bless!!!!!

[Brother Tim]

The chief problem with trying to unite KJBOs and anti-KJBOs* in any form of fellowship is that neither side views the other as equals. Just as you, Just-A-Thought, and others can come to this site and then return to FFF and chortle among yourselves at the foolish ignorance of us KJBOs, we KJBOs can go to FFF and observe your commiserating.

* The term anti-KJBO, which title you claim, is by definition an adversarial position. I have those with whom I can have a level of fellowship who do not believe the KJB is the only Bible to use, yet they do not consider my position to be extreme. Instead, they see me as intense in my faith, and at a level that they themselves have not ventured. We can banter quite well about the subject, but there is a degree of respect. With the anti-KJBO, the whole agenda is to discredit the KJBOs position. I prefer to call you an adversary, for "enemy" is too stark a term, but we cannot find much room for fellowship since there is little on which to unite.

[George]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

The chief problem with trying to unite KJBOs and anti-KJBOs* in any form of fellowship is that neither side views the other as equals. Just as you, Just-A-Thought, and others can come to this site and then return to FFF and chortle among yourselves at the foolish ignorance of us KJBOs, we KJBOs can go to FFF and observe your commiserating.

* The term anti-KJBO, which title you claim, is by definition an adversarial position. I have those with whom I can have a level of fellowship who do not believe the KJB is the only Bible to use, yet they do not consider my position to be extreme. Instead, they see me as intense in my faith, and at a level that they themselves have not ventured. We can banter quite well about the subject, but there is a degree of respect. With the anti-KJBO, the whole agenda is to discredit the KJBOs position. I prefer to call you an adversary, for "enemy" is too stark a term, but we cannot find much room for fellowship since there is little on which to unite.

Aloha Brother Tim,

I am in complete agreement with you on this brother!

The are many Christians out there who do not believe, as I do, in the King James Bible as being the perfect, holy, infallible, inspired, and without error word of God; but with whom I can (and do ) have a certain amount of fellowship around our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. However, those "Christians" who take an ADVERSARIAL POSITION AGAINST the HOLY BIBLE are a "different matter" all together!

I refuse to have anything to do with any "Christian" who ADDS TO; SUBTRACTS FROM; CHANGES; or CORRECTS the Holy Bible (especially those "Christians" who choose to ATTACK and DEMEAN it)! In addition, I do not believe that I am under any obligation to extend the right hand of fellowship to these kinds of "Christians", and neither does 2Timothy 2:22-26 "apply" to these kinds of people:

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

But rather 1Timothy 5:50; 2Timothy 4:2; Titus 1:13; and Titus 2:15 are the appropriate "response" to troublemakers and those "Christians" who would divide the brethren over this issue.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

This is why I do not "join" their Forums or engage in a "dialogue" or a "debate": with them. They have NO interest in the TRUTH - there is NO EDIFICATION; and here is NO PROFIT!

Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Sad to say - this is the result of a Humanistic upbringing, training, and education ("Secular" or "Christian"). It's called "FAITHLESSNESS", and there is NO known scientific, medical, or psychological "CURE" for it, unless Almighty God Himself "intervenes" in the life of these proud and arrogant individuals! {Only "BELIEF" in God's PROMISE and ABILITY to "PRESERVE" His Holy words will do.}

Proverbs 11:2 When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

Proverbs 14:3 In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Do these people really think that God will not hold them accountable for their words or their conduct in regards to His Holy words?

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

[Just_A_Thought]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

The chief problem with trying to unite KJBOs and anti-KJBOs* in any form of fellowship is that neither side views the other as equals. Just as you, Just-A-Thought, and others can come to this site and then return to FFF and chortle among yourselves at the foolish ignorance of us KJBOs, we KJBOs can go to FFF and observe your commiserating.

* The term anti-KJBO, which title you claim, is by definition an adversarial position. I have those with whom I can have a level of fellowship who do not believe the KJB is the only Bible to use, yet they do not consider my position to be extreme. Instead, they see me as intense in my faith, and at a level that they themselves have not ventured. We can banter quite well about the subject, but there is a degree of respect. With the anti-KJBO, the whole agenda is to discredit the KJBOs position. I prefer to call you an adversary, for "enemy" is too stark a term, but we cannot find much room for fellowship since there is little on which to unite.

I will not deny that I defend the anti-KJVO position. I do but I never call you extremists or thing of that nature. I know good Christians who are KJVO. I do not hate or mock KJVOs either. So I see no reason for a lack of fellowship. /i argue my point on the internet but if I knew you in person and your stand I would not even bring it up. I only fight it on the net.

[George]

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

I know you are anti-KJBO. I also know that you are trying to "win us over" to your position, which you confess is "anti-KJBO'ism". Source: http://www.fundamentalforums.com/bib...ollessons.html

Anyway, the KJB summit videos are here, as you already know:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

Aloha brother,

I want to thank you for providing us with the information about this so-called "KJB Summit". It should have been called the "Hyles/Anderson Summit on why "we" do NOT accept the King James Bible as our "FINAL AUTHORITY"!

I have endured 5 of the 10 videos posted and I still stand by my earlier comments (i.e. this Thread - Post #6) about "respect of persons"; "Christian Celebrities"; and "Faithlessness".

This so-called KJB "Summit" was nothing more than a Hyles/Anderson "SHOW" from start to finish! The whole "SHAM" was put on by Hyles/Anderson people and was "CONTROLLED BY" Hyles/Anderson people from beginning to end. {In addition to reviewing the first 5 videos, I reviewed a portion of the last Video ("Questions & Answers") and some of their answers (or refusal to answer a question) were meager, obtuse and pitiful, to say the least!}

A real genuine "KJB Summit" would have had men from "both sides" (or possibly "all sides") of the issue, instead of a "lopsided" presentation controlled by only one "party" to the debate.

Those men (that I viewed and listened to) who made their presentations judge according to "appearance". Their "measuring stick" in regards to "faithfulness" to God is: HOW MANY SOULS DO YOU "WIN" for the Lord Jesus Christ, and HOW BIG A WORK HAVE YOU BUILT (for the Lord - of course)! It's a "NUMBERS" & "SIZE" game [John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.] and any one that does not "measure up" to their own personal private convictions are dismissed out of hand.

NONE of the speakers (that I viewed and listened to) have ONE SINGLE FINAL AUTHORITY (ONE BOOK -that they can hold in their hands). They all USE the King James Bible (for "results"); and they all give LIP-SERVICE to the King James Bible (or they would be fired), but not one of the men that I listened to demonstrated a LOVE for the King James Bible!

All of the men (that I viewed and listened to) ELEVATE the "GREEK" language and the "HEBREW" language as being SUPERIOR to the "ENGLISH" language - when it comes to the "words" of God. And because of their belief in the "original" languages, they are postulating that the "original languages are to be "PREFERRED" OVER the English - even though only a very small minority of Christians today can read and understand the "original languages"! {Please see my Post: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...2&postcount=33}

This "Summit" is a SOPHISTICATED and SUBTLE endeavor (carried out by the "educated intelligentsia" within "Christian circles") to UNDERMINE an ordinary Bible believer's faith in the Holy Bible! The only "outcome" that I can see as a result of this so-called "Summit" is more "DIVISION" amongst those Christians who call themselves Fundamentalists.

This "KJB Summit" has solved nothing about the "Which Bible" issue. There was NO EDIFICATION or PROFIT from this "Summit". And, although I make NO CLAIM to being a Prophet, I believe this so-called "KJB Summit" spells THE END for Hyles/Anderson College as far as upholding the holy and precious words of God, as found in our King James Bible. {Apostasy always begins with the "intelligentsia", i.e. the 'leaders" in the church. Today it's the "pastors" and "teachers" - in the Lord Jesus' time it was the "Pharisees" and the "scribes" - SAME BUNCH, just different names!}

The DESTRUCTIVE effects of this so-called "JKB Summit" will reverberate throughout the Fundamentalist Baptist churches throughout America - WHAT WERE THESE PEOPLE THINKING OF? WHAT DID THEY HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH?

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word ofGod: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.