[LindaR]

Originally Posted by chette777

Doctrinally all the OT does not agree with Paul.

If all the Old Testament didn't agree with Paul doctrinally, why did he quote it? Why did Jesus quote the Old Testament? The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. We are not living under the Old Testament, but that does not mean we are to discard it, for it is the foundation from which the New Testament was written.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:44-45)

What "Scriptures" were those disciples to understand? It could not have been the New Testament, because it was not written yet. It was the Old Testament "Scriptures". The Old Testament points us to Christ.

[Cody1611]

Originally Posted by Scott Simons

All the old testament agrees with Paul's teaching. Dude what are you thinking.

What??? lol

[swordsman]

Originally Posted by chette777

Only if the Old Testament agrees with Apostle Paul's teaching on a given subject

AMEN !!

hi~

i feel compelled to contribute to this subject, as it is of great importance. granted, i'm new to this community, but we are believers in the LORD Jesus Christ ~ brethren. so with that said, something to consider. it is truth, the LORD does not change, & the whole Word & every word written in the scriptures & transcribed is from the LORD in heaven, inspired from the holy prophets & apostles that brought forth is from the will of God. in relation between both testaments, the Law still stands but the sacrificial system is null & void because Jesus Christ became the sacrificial offering for sin. His sacrifice on the cross brought an end to the sacrificial system & His words fulfill the Law, thus His -one- sacrifice is the gaurantee that the Law stands. at the last day, the earth shall be judged by the Law & just like the Passover, we who accept the LORD Jesus Christ the Law shall passover as our sins are forever purged from the sanctuary of the LORD's Tabernacle in heaven.

words by myself would be of arrogance, so let me pull up biblical support ~ of a truth, here is one & perhaps the only one needed. from the Gospel According to St. Matthew 5:17 - 18:

5:17 Thinke not that I am come to destroy the law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say vnto you, *Till heaven and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall be in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled.

~levite-7

[LindaR]

From Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible:

The Old Testament:

(1) Holy Scripture given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16).

(2) Prophecy given by God through holy men (2 Peter 1:21).

(3) Prophecy of the grace, sufferings, and glory of Christ (1 Peter 1:10-11).

(4) Things concerning Christ (Luke 24:25-27).

(5) Shadow of good things to come (Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17).

(6) Written for our learning, example, admonition, and comfort (Romans 4:23-24; 15:4; 1 Corinthians 9:10; 10:1-11; 2 Timothy 3:17).

(7) A schoolmaster to reveal sin and to lead to Christ (Galatians 3:1-29; Romans 3:1-31).

O.T. - Promise / N.T. - Fulfillment

O.T. - Types / N.T. - Reality

O.T. - Preparation / N.T. - Presentation

O.T. - The Foundation / N.T. - The Building

The entire Bible applies to Christians...all 66 books from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Originally Posted by Levite-7

hi~

i feel compelled to contribute to this subject, as it is of great importance. granted, i'm new to this community, but we are believers in the LORD Jesus Christ ~ brethren. so with that said, something to consider. it is truth, the LORD does not change, & the whole Word & every word written in the scriptures & transcribed is from the LORD in heaven, inspired from the holy prophets & apostles that brought forth is from the will of God. in relation between both testaments, the Law still stands but the sacrificial system is null & void because Jesus Christ became the sacrificial offering for sin. His sacrifice on the cross brought an end to the sacrificial system & His words fulfill the Law, thus His -one- sacrifice is the gaurantee that the Law stands. at the last day, the earth shall be judged by the Law & just like the Passover, we who accept the LORD Jesus Christ the Law shall passover as our sins are forever purged from the sanctuary of the LORD's Tabernacle in heaven.

words by myself would be of arrogance, so let me pull up biblical support ~ of a truth, here is one & perhaps the only one needed. from the Gospel According to St. Matthew 5:17 - 18:

5:17 Thinke not that I am come to destroy the law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say vnto you, *Till heaven and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall be in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled.

~levite-7

What I'm trying to say, is that GOd is the same, but the testaments are different.

For example, in the OT, GOD promoted swearing

Deuteronomy 6:13
Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

In the NT, GOd forbids swearing

Matthew 5:34
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:


Yet, both in the NT and OT GOd is the same.

Originally Posted by swordsman

AMEN !!

What? Don't you mean that, the other way around?

[JMWHALEN]

Does Old Testament apply to Christians?

A Test
By John M. Whalen
(bold is my emphasis)
(understand the sarcasm)

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46
__________________________________________________ __________________________

"Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." 1 Timothy 2:7

"Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles." 2 Timothy 1:11


"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Timothy 2:2

Since, obviously, the body of Christ is being addressed in Matthew-John and the early Acts period, let us begin out test of intellectual honesty. Those who understand dispensational truth will be grading each and every answer. And there will be no "grading on the curve." Let's begin, shall we? And no "up periscope", i.e., "cheating" by "scoping"/ looking at another student's answers(such as a commentary, book, what my pastor wrote, what a "reverand" wrote, what a "priest" wrote, what a theologian with 15 titles before and after his/her name wrote, what "the church" "fathers" wrote, what "Luther, Calvin, Warfield, Spurgeon, Schofield, Finney, Wesley............................................ .......................wrote). Although this is an "open book" exam, only the Holy Bible may be used. And "feel free" to disregard 2 Timothy 2:15, at least for this test /examination since, obviously, all scripture is written for our obedience.

The first question is not "multiple choice", nor "all but two of the above", nor will any answer be accepted along the lines of "He really did not mean that literally- He was merely ONLY attempting to teach/convey a spiritual truth".

Question 1: Have you sold all your possesions? This is one of the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ- one of the "things which" He said:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." Luke 12:32-33

("Extra credit" on this test! Please elaborate as to why you do or "do not the things" of giving alms, since, as previously mentioned, obviously the body of Christ is being addressed here-"little flock"=the body of Christ.)

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22

As stated, any answer along the lines of "He really did not mean that literally- He was merely ONLY attempting to teach/convey a spiritual truth", or, "that was before the cross and the resurrection", will be "red marked" as incorrect, and "non responsive/incomplete", for the disciples did exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ said, both before and after the death, burial, and resurrection:

"before"

"Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" Matthew 19:27

"Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee." Mark 10:28

"Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee." Luke 18:28

"after"

"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." Acts 2:44,45

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Acts 3:6

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:32-35

(PS: "Extra credit" on this test! Provide your analysis as to the merits of communism, i.e., "...all things common..." vs. "free enterprise"/"capitalism", per Acts 11:29 ,"every man according to his ability...", today. And we must "leave out

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Timothy 5:8

since, obviously Paul had not read the previous cited scriptures. Why Paul?!)

Penalty for disobedience:death-Acts 5:1-11 per Numbers 15:29-31:


"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

I expect each and every believer to "Produce your cause......bring forth your strong reasons...", as to why you do obey these commands, or, conversely, why you "....do not do the things which I say..."(Luke 6:46). If you do obey these commands, I would at least respect your intellectual honesty, and your consistency.
As Elijah of old demanded, and I likewise demand:

"...How long halt ye between two opinions?..." (1 Kings 18:21)

And I do not expect "....And the people answered him not a word...." (1 Kings 18:21)


PS/PS:
1.You may use a pencil instead of a pen. This way, perhaps you can rethink your position, demonstrating a "...readiness of mind..."(Acts 17:11), and erase it.

2. "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Timothy 2:2

I encourage other "likeminded"(Philippians 2:20) teachers of right division to provide questions for this test. I am merely a substitute teacher.


In Christ,
John M. Whalen

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN

Since, obviously, the body of Christ is being addressed in Matthew-John and the early Acts period, let us begin out test of intellectual honesty. Those who understand dispensational truth will be grading each and every answer. And there will be no "grading on the curve." Let's begin, shall we?

Yes, let's do. Why don't we begin by saying that, although 2 Tim. 3:16 applies to "all scripture," it is emphatically not the case that all of Matthew-John was addressed to "the body of Christ." Huge portions of the four Gospels were addressed to Old Testament Jews, who were contemporaries of Jesus; when He preached the Sermon on the Mount, He was certainly not preaching to "the body of Christ," because it didn't exist yet. Other parts, such as Matthew 24, were addressed to people living in the Tribulation. Now, every word of these Gospels is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness; but it behooves us not to pretend that every verse is binding or normative upon the body of Christ in the Church Age.

Another little slip-up like that, teacher, and I'm gonna report you to the NEA!

Question 1: Have you sold all your possesions? This is one of the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ- one of the "things which" He said:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21

No, teacher, I have not sold all my possessions, nor do I intend to do so. Here are my reasons:

a) In the verse you quoted, Jesus wasn't talking to me; He was talking to the "rich young ruler." (I am neither rich, young, nor a ruler!) Selling his possessions was God's demand of that individual, just as going to Ananias' house on Straight Street was His command to Paul (Acts 9). Now, there is a spiritual application for me in the verse, but the literal application was not aimed in my direction. So, I have no obligation to sell my possessions.

b) If I sold all my possessions, it would be impossible for me to provide for my family, and, as you yourself have quoted, But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel," 1 Timothy 5:8. Now, unlike Jesus' comments to the rich young ruler, that verse is directed at me: a born-again Christian living in the Church Age. Although you've ruled out that verse in the extra-credit section, I cannot answer this question without it. Don't tell me I can't use a specific scripture, or I'll have the Board of Education down on you so fast it'll make your head swim!

c) If I sold all my possessions, I could not support my church, or missionaries, or other Christians in need. Selling my car and my clothes would seriously affect my ability to hold a job. If this sounds like rationalization, then I demand that you come to school tomorrow, naked and on foot, and see how the Principal likes it.

(PS: "Extra credit" on this test! Provide your analysis as to the merits of communism, i.e., "...all things common..." vs. "free enterprise"/"capitalism", per Acts 11:29 ,"every man according to his ability...", today.

The "all things common" of Acts was not "Communism." Communism is a perversion of a scriptural concept, and has been called a Christian heresy. I cannot, in the space allowed, compare and contrast Communism and capitalism, because I've been studying Communism since I was 13 years old, and it's a big (though shallow) subject. I will simply say that neither system is any good, from a scriptural point of view: Communism is the philosophical expression of man's lust for power over others, whereas capitalism is the economic expression of man's acquisitiveness and greed. I stipulate, however, that in His teaching, Jesus did not denounce the ownership of private property. But that's a far different thing than saying that capitalism is "Christian." It's not.

For further details on the Marxist dogma of "from each ....to each," consult the Obama campaign.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN

Does Old Testament apply to Christians?

A Test
By John M. Whalen
(bold is my emphasis)
(understand the sarcasm)

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

I will attempt to address your first scripture reference on the test. I will prayerfully do my best. (I hope I pass.)

Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Personally, it always helps me to understand the verse better when I put it in context with the verses which surround it. I’ll attempt to apply some things I’ve read recently from some well learned brethren.

HISTORY – Who is being taught?

Lu 6:17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases;

DOCTRINE – What is being taught?

Lu 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Lu 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Lu 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Lu 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
Lu 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Lu 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Lu 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Lu 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Lu 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Lu 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

SPIRITUAL APPLICATION – What personal application can be made to me?

Since, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Timothy 3:16), I will attempt to make a personal and spiritual application.

These verses are profitable for DOCTRINE

Personally, this is good for doctrine because when I read the list of the sayings of Christ found in Luke 6:27–37, I for one, understand the absolute impossibility of keeping them. I admit to you, I cannot obey every single saying and commandment of Jesus Christ. I must trust Him to be my righteousness.

1. Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
   
2. Bless them that curse you, and
   
3. pray for them which despitefully use you.
   
4. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and
   
5. him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
   
6. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
   
7. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
   
8. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
   
9. Be ye therefore merciful, as [in the same manner in which] your Father also is merciful.
   
10. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
    
11. condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
    
12. forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:” (Luke 6:27–37).

These verses are profitable for REPROOF

These sayings are profitable for reproof because the Holy Spirit uses these words to convict me of sin. The Holy Spirit shows me through the word that no matter how hard I try, I come up short of the glory of God which is in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

These verses are profitable for CORRECTION

These sayings are profitable for correction because they set me on the right course. These verses show me that the high standard of holy and perfect living can only be obtained through someone who is perfect, sinless, and holy. I confess to you, I need and require a substitute, a propitiation for my sin; I need forgiveness, redemption, and sanctification.

These verses are profitable for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS

These verses are profitable for instruction in righteousness because they teach me the only condition which is acceptable to God is righteousness which, I admit to you again, I cannot obtain apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

2Co 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.