[chette777]

unfortunately it says pipes and tebrets not musical instruments.

Isa 14:11 has more to do with the celebrations of victory of the king of Babylon than it does describing Lucifer's calling to be a worship leader. but where did Lucifer if he was such a beautiful creature pay his pipes and Tabrets? Where are the stones of fire (one of those non existent places)

Esekiel 28 decribe him, it does not say or describe the use of the pipes and tabrets. that is a guess at best.

Geo,

A cherub looks like a Ox and and Ox like a cherub study these verses and their surrounding verses closely.

Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Eze 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

these are the only two faces that don't match an Ox and a Cherub all others have their match. so a Cherub looks like an ox. large rounded eye, small horns, legs of a calf, and a tail. Hence why some would say the Bible stole its description of Satan from Roman or Greek mythological creature called Pan. but in reality the Bible has always described him as such and mythology borrowed their description of Pan from the Bible.

Once you have this upright Ox Cherub with wings cover him with These stones. they don't have to be whole pieces you can cut and paste them as needed. I am reminded of the different colors certain fish and Birds give off their scales and feathers that reflect blues, greens reds, purples, orange and reds the whole spectrum of the rainbow.

This is what the anointed cherub looked like an OX of many colors

KI,

Why doesn't the Bible go further to describe the use of these Pipes and Tabrets?

Could it be in the 24/7 he has never used them?

[chette777]

I can list you a very long list of things mentioned in the Bible that are not mentioned in detail mainly because such things were created in a different Time measurement or before our current 24/7 time establishment the first day of our six day creation account. they are not detailed because they are not of or for this current TQ.

Things like the wheeled chariot throne of God and full of eyes, the stones of fire, Lucifer's fall, the creation of Seraphim's, Cherub's, and angels. the New Jerusalem, God throne in the North of the North, the Altar, the heavenly tabernacle pattern shown to Moses, Horses upon which Christ and the Saints ride through heaven to earth upon, fire, water, the original earth prior to the six day events, the third heaven. which was the only one heaven of Genesis 1:1 until the firmament was created on day two (the only day not said to be good on that day though its creation is good to serve God's will). And these are only a few things.

I listed all scriptures that have an element outside the 24/7TQ we are in and many things fit in that division. because they are things that were made or existed before the 6 day creation and our current 24/7. it is a two part dispensational division eternity and the 24/7 everything falls into those two areas in Scriptures.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

Why doesn't the Bible go further to describe the use of these Pipes and Tabrets?

Are you sure it doesn't?

The scriptures posted thus far satisfy me enough to draw some conclusions.

1. When Lucifer was created by God there were tabret[s] and pipe[s] prepared inside him. Ezekiel 28:13

2. Tabrets and pipes are associated with music in scripture. Gen 31:27; 1 Samuel 10:5; 1 Samuel 18:6; Isaiah 24:8; Isaiah 30:32; Isaiah 5:12.

3. "the noise of thy viols" is a clear proof that Lucifer made music. Viols are associated with idol worship in Amos 5:23-26, and chanting in Amos 6:5.

4. Lucifer is called the "son of the morning" in Isaiah 14:12, he (Satan) was among the sons of God in Job 1, it's probable that he was with them also when the foundations of the earth were laid in Job 38:4-7 when the morning stars "sang" together (read: made musick) and the sons of God shouted for joy.

Originally Posted by chette777

Could it be in the 24/7 he has never used them?

Do you not believe in Satanic music?

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 2:11 "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

I believe Satan is very influencial in music within this 24/7TQ. He may not be the one sounding out the music from his inner organs, but certainly him and his devils play a big part inspiring or possessing the musicians of this world to make sounds that glorify the god of this world.

[peopleoftheway]

Lets throw a little something else into the Mix here.

Now I know that some agree that tabrets and pipes were literal musical instruments and some agree that they are sockets and settings etc, but why not take the two together, how about the tabrets, pipes, viols are not literal musical instruments embedded into his body but simply a description of his vocal chords. As we know from scripture the devil beguiled eve through his voice with enticing and seducing speech

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
We know from scripture that he will deceive many in the last days

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now none of us can say we have ever heard the heavenly host singing, our feeble unglorified bodies and minds couldn't comprehend the beauty and majesty in the sound they would make. So those who are left under the antichrist rule are going to be so entranced and beguiled as eve was by his seducing speech (vocal Chords).




Look at this section of a vocal Chord, turn it upside down and what instrument does this look like that is used today to create seductive and devilish sounds?

[chette777]

Kiwi you were the one who said the Bible doesn't go further is describing certain things quote "There are some things in scripture that are not clearly defined". in the description of Ezek 28 it doesn't go any further than to describe the beauty of this creation. it never says what the pipe and tabrets are for, everyone assumes they are for music People brought in an interesting thought.

The seven lampstands or candlesticks were made the design of what is known as a Menorah(pron?). these were beaten gold which formed little tubes (pipes) that had branches (pipes with tees) and on them were six on each side and one in the center a bowl shaped like an almond (Tabret-small drum) it would be capped with a small cover with a wick. Oil was placed in the tubes and the wicks would siphon oil to light the lamp. if the oil ran out all wicks went out at the same time.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

Kiwi you were the one who said the Bible doesn't go further is describing certain things quote "There are some things in scripture that are not clearly defined".

That's right, it was in relation to what Bro. Winman said about "Occam's Razor." On the other hand, there are many things in scripture not clearly defined in one single verse, but clarity comes when you study the Bible and compare scripture with scripture, as you well know. Hence why I gave you more than just Ezekiel 28.

Originally Posted by chette777

The seven lampstands or candlesticks were made the design of what is known as a Menorah(pron?). these were beaten gold which formed little tubes (pipes) that had branches (pipes with tees) and on them were six on each side and one in the center a bowl shaped like an almond (Tabret-small drum) it would be capped with a small cover with a wick. Oil was placed in the tubes and the wicks would siphon oil to light the lamp. if the oil ran out all wicks went out at the same time.

I saw that in Zechariah 4:2 when I searched for "pipes" in my Bible software. You say the centre bowl is shaped like a "tabret-small drum" yet I can't find where the Bible gives it that description using the word tabret? Every mention of tabret or tabrets I found in scripture is connected with music, same as every mention of the word viol or viols in scripture is connected with music, and we know that Lucifer made noise with his viols in Isaiah 14:11.

So I, and others here, are not just basing this belief on one verse that gives limited information, it's scripture with scripture.

[chette777]

KI,

I was just giving you an example of plumbing of the lamp. I know there are no reference to those words but when you understand all the meanings of the English words then you can have a fuller understanding. a Tabret (in plumbing) is a drum (a bowl)like container generally small not much bigger than your thumb (an Almond) that has a valve connected to the pipe to control the flow. the old oil lamps used in some old Victorian styled houses had these some people even called the Tabret lamps. they were filled via a oil can and the wick was lit to give off light.

My point is there is not proof that he ever played music from the Bible. you can connect all sorts of verse to show they are musical instruments but to claim he was a worship leader in heaven would be a guess at best. so any guess would be a good as another.

and if he did play music when did he? where did he? why? the Bible is silent.

the descriptions in Isaiah are of the King of Babylon and that his music and pomp would not be heard or seen any more when he was brought into the grave where the worm eats his flesh. then mysteriously God inserts the Lucifer notes on his rebellion.

If Lucifer did lead worship he is not now, and he has not been cast into the hell yet. so his music is no longer heard in heaven yet he is still alive. which doesn't match to that of Isaiah14:11

I pointed out if he did it was in a time that had no connection to our present time. there is a difference between eternity and our 24/7 time measurements as mentioned by Peter and the Psalmist. I don't think either were saying that a day is equal to 1,000 years but rather describe in our words of understanding that would convey that God's time measurement is different than ours. So Why would God lets us know so clearly there is a difference in our TQ's? (TQ=time quantum=time measurement)

anyway, I like to bring in to the post a variety of views and understandings on things so we can all think deeper for those things which are revealed are for our learning.

It is ok to stretch your bible a little on issues like this as long as we remember that God and his word has the final say. I learned that from Peter Ruckman

[Winman]

Well, I would like to introduce a new question that has been on my mind.

Has Satan "fallen" yet??

I believe most Christians would say yes, but I am not so sure. Probably the most important verse to support this belief is Luke 10:18

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Is it possible the Lord was speaking of a future event here?

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The reason I ask this (and this is a sincere question) is because Satan still has access to heaven as shown in Job.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

So, it is clearly written here in scripture that Satan has access to heaven, or at least he still had access in the days of Job.

So, I am not asking if Satan sinned, it is clear that in Genesis chapter 3 that Satan is evil, adding to the Word of God and deceiving Eve.

But from what I read, Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven, and will not be so until the end as shown in Revelations chapter 12.

Any opinions on this?

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Winman

Well, I would like to introduce a new question that has been on my mind.

Has Satan "fallen" yet??

I believe most Christians would say yes, but I am not so sure. Probably the most important verse to support this belief is Luke 10:18

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Is it possible the Lord was speaking of a future event here?

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The reason I ask this (and this is a sincere question) is because Satan still has access to heaven as shown in Job.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

So, it is clearly written here in scripture that Satan has access to heaven, or at least he still had access in the days of Job.

So, I am not asking if Satan sinned, it is clear that in Genesis chapter 3 that Satan is evil, adding to the Word of God and deceiving Eve.

But from what I read, Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven, and will not be so until the end as shown in Revelations chapter 12.

Any opinions on this?

Has Satan "fallen"? Yes and absolutely yes. Actually, the verse you provide in Luke 10:18 or in Isaiah 14:12 is a clear indication that he was. It all began when Lucifer said "I will" in Isaiah 14:13-14 so that he was fallen and was cast in the first heaven and become "...the prince of the power of the air..." Ephesians 2:2. Now in Job 1:6 we are not sure that God was in His abode when Satan came also. If this is heaven, it might not be the third heaven(God's abode where no sin can enter) but probaly the second heaven. Whilst Satan had to come to present himself before the Lord, the Bible is not definite to where it occur but the best probality, it occur in the second heaven. Again In Revalation 12, Satan was yet to cast down. Accordingly, Satan is to be cast out into the earth. No more he will be called the prince of the power of the air. Again,Satan will lowered in his position. He will now be next crawling into the deep abyss or the bottomless pit.
Has Satan not fallen yet? He has been fallen but not yet into the ground and in the bottomless pit.


Jude 25
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