[Rolando]

Originally Posted by stephanos

Ok, I forgot that I wanted to add that repentance isn't a bad thing to preach on, and of a truth it is necessary for salvation, but not in the way that people often think. People need to repent of anything they believed would get them into heaven. This I believe is part of salvation. We cannot trust in Christ alone for salvation and believe we need to make a pilgrimage to Mecca or take the uholy wafer Jesus or get sprinkled by a demonic white collared cleric of the queen of heaven. Those works are a smoothly paved road to hell. To be saved we must repent of our dead works (things we thought before were our righteousness, things we thought "might" get us into heaven) and trust in the Lord Jesus to save us from the just penalty of our sins. We must trust that JESUS became salvation to bear our sins on the cross. When we believe in the Gospel of Christ Jesus' death, burial and resurrection we ARE saved. It is that simple.

As for what to do with those cards; I simply don't know. If they contained info that would lead a curious soul to answers then I'd say use them. At least Chick tracts (which contain the "repent to be saved" message) have info on where to get more information (safe information that is). I wouldn't trust my dog with the WotM folks, let alone a precious soul who needs Jesus and a glass of warm milk.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Thanks the Lord someone is standing up for this. You see, I'll use this topic as a opportunity to mention that I myself been having an issue with a Gospel tract that I'm been handing out to people. It's from Fellowship Tract League and it's titled Eternal Life is a Free Gift. I like most of what's written in this tract except for a certain part:

How You Can Be Saved.

The Bible calls for “repentance toward God,” (Acts 20:21b) Repentance is a change of heart which causes you to turn toward God and away from your present way of life. Accept the Bible facts that you are guilty as a sinner before Him, and you are unable to deliver yourself from the punishment of hell, which is due you because your sin. (Fellowship Tract League, Tract 109, page 3).

"Repentance is a change of heart which causes you to turn toward God and away from your present way of life." What? Isn't this work salvation somehow? I mean, if getting saved required someone turning from their present way of life (which is of course sinful), in order for GOD to forgive them, then can we call Salvation a free gift? Please, give me a break! Anyway, if anyone believe I'm wrong in this feeling then please correct with the scriptures. Anyway, here's the link to the tract:
http://www.fellowshiptractleague.org...iew_page_1.htm

Please read the whole thing and tell what you think. It pains me the thought that I been giving out heresy to people who need to get saved.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Rolando

Thanks the Lord someone is standing up for this. You see, I'll use this topic as a opportunity to mention that I myself been having an issue with a Gospel tract that I'm been handing out to people. It's from Fellowship Tract League and it's titled Eternal Life is a Free Gift. I like most of what's written in this tract except for a certain part

I use FTL's tracts and Chick's tracts because I understand what repentance means. The way these self righteous Calvinists push repentance is erroneous and destructive to the cause of Christ. Never the less I've decided, after prayer and posting on forums such as this, that it's safe to use FTL and Chick's tracts since someone who reads one of these tracts isn't even likely to know what that word even means. All they know is that they need to change, and that they need to be saved. In these tracts is enough to get these folks saved, so I use them. Lord willing, I'll find employment soon and I'll have some tracts printed for me with the Gospel of God's grace.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[Luke]

I am going to start writing up a piece that desperately needs to be written on the ecumenical nature of Ray Comfort, and the ecumenical drawcard that is Paul Washer. Paul Washer is a 5 point calvinist, but I have seen 100% arminians totally fall in love with him, over ONE issue - his definition of repentance. It matches that of Rome exactly. All roads lead to Rome (except the KJB).

EDIT: I chucked out a heap of livingwater tracts. My wife and I ordered some NZ ones (are you a good kiwi), but the text on the back was the worst I have seen so far. It was 100% works based - you must confess and turn away from all sin.

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

Wow, here's the WotM issue back again

It seems like folks here really come down hard on them, labelling them heretics with a false gospel, throwing out their materials, outright blasting them all based on a vague definition of repentance.

Now, we can all agree that it is necessary that a sinner repent of whatever it was he was trusting in to save him before he trusted in Christ alone.
Is not the trusting in the RCC, 'science', or good works etc instead of Christ, sinful?
The oft-attacked WotM statement: "confess and turn from your sin" is correct when applied towards whatever a sinner was trusting in before placing it in Christ, including their good works.

For the record, I agree that forsaking each and every little sin, making oneself completly pure and sinless BEFORE being saved is not only heretical, but impossible. But I don't beleive thats what WotM promotes, or even flirts with.

The anger towards WotM seems to stem from putting words in their mouths, where they are not. Expanding on their given definition of repentance, making them say that lordship is necessary before salvation, when thats not what is even alluded to.
Now, I have actually watched ALL of the basic and intermediate training courses, read two WotM books, and watched more clips on the web, and surfed their site, and nowhere have I ever detected anything resembling lordship salvation, let alone a false gospel.
In fact, their entire drive is showing a person that whatever they were relying on to save themselves with isn't going to cut it, pointing them to Jesus Christ as the only option.

I think people get their hackles up when the law is used and they jump to conclusions about the people using it.
The law is used (in WotM) for the very purpose it was designed for: to show man his sin. Without the law, we would not know our sin. WotM makes it clear that its not by keeping the law we get saved, but its by falling very short of the law that makes us need the Saviour.
Yes yes, the law was given to the Jews, but using its depiction of God's moral standard to show a lost man his sin (which he doesn't think he has), is not a transgression of a Book rightly divided.
A sinner must know, understand and confess that he is a sinner before he can be saved. (thats not works, its a change of heart).

Repentance

Lorship Salvation

Now, I don't know anything much about Paul Washer, and I know that Living Waters doesn't focus on much other than witnessing, thereby sidestepping many other topics / truths. I wouldn't say they are ecumenical per se, but they're not separated either.
I know the Living Waters team is so eager to get their message out, they may have teamed up with just about anyone to be heard.
I don't agree with everything and anything from Comfort and crew, but it seems to me like this label of Lordship salvation might be going too far.
I did get uneasy at one of their videos about true and false conversions, where they misinterpreted the usage of Jesus' parables and also said that people's lives should be visibly Christian - and they should. They then urge to examine oneself to ensure they are really saved, but not by measuring their works, but rather by ensuring 100% faith in Jesus's atonement for their sins.

I was sincerely concerned, so I wrote them an email asking about this doctrine, and I got a response that their employees aren't to answer doctrinal questions, and that I should try Ray's blog, which is more of a battleground for Atheists, so I didn't post fuel for their fire on there.

So, I'm not a Living Waters troll, nor do I say these guys have everything right, I know of areas where they could really shape up (separation, Bible versions, expanded teachings on other worthy topics, satanic pitfalls and deceptions etc), but I also have learned not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and take what is good from a teacher, and brother in Christ, then dicern and reject what is false.
Their ministry is to promote effective evangelism, supplying methods, techniques, encouragement, confidence and materials to transform the average lukewarm Christian into a soul-winner.

Do they have everything right? No. Do they have great ways to explain salvation to people? Yes. Are there other, also effective ways? yes. Yet their methods are highly effective at cutting through the worldly barriers, the false religions, the humanism, the relativism, the denials, and get straight to the conscience, which is the soul-winner's ally and the God-given means to drive men to repentance and salvation. For that and other reasons, I value what good I did learn from them, adding it to other stuff gleaned from others (including you guys!)

I'm still open for discussions, because whenever my Bible-believing brethren hold a position I don't hold, I will always listen closely to their positions, for I myself cannot possibly have everything right, and I value other studied ideas. So before we bash and banish Ray Comfort, lets discuss the good and the bad, perhaps we can all benefit.

[TheBibleSender]

Originally Posted by BornAgainBibleBeliever514

Wow, here's the WotM issue back again

For the record, I agree that forsaking each and every little sin, making oneself completly pure and sinless BEFORE being saved is not only heretical, but impossible. But I don't beleive thats what WotM promotes, or even flirts with.

.

I was watchign a WOTM show the other day where Comfort was talking with a man. He said you must repent and trust in Christ. Which I thought was fine but then he said you have to stop your liying stop your lusting etc and trust in Christ. Sounds like Lordship Salvation to me. God bless.