Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

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Old 09-18-2008, 10:56 PM
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atlas atlas is offline
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Default Do we need Greek and Hebrew?

Do we need Greek and Hebrew?

I'll say no, we never need Greek or Hebrew.

I hold to the belief that the KJV is the 100% perfect preserved Word of God, therefore I never need Greek or Hebrew.

If you believe that the KJV is God's preserved Word why do you even need Greek or Hebrew?

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Old 09-18-2008, 11:50 PM
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“For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” (Zephaniah 3:9).

If you look at the context of this verse, you can see that it is set in the latter times. Now, since people were talking Hebrew, the “pure language” to which the people would be turned cannot be Hebrew (they would not be turned from Hebrew to Hebrew, but to another language). Moreover, it cannot be Greek (the New Testament) because the Jews and even Christians to this day, have to yet reached a point of “one consent” in believing, and in their knowledge of what God’s name actually is (i.e. JEHOVAH).

Since English is the global language, the “pure language” must be God’s Word in one form (one Bible version) for all. Thus, the pure language is literally Biblical English.

This being the case, going back to the Hebrew or Greek, both in regards to text (which words belong) and/or translation (the meaning of words) is not consistent with the statement of Zephaniah 3:9.

“For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.” (Isaiah 28:11).

The evangelisation of the Jews (i.e. natural Israel) must be by a different language, not Hebrew, nor Syriack, nor Greek, but English. There has not yet been a full conversion of the Jews or Israel, (even though English is now spoken there), but the Scripture shows that Israel (the Jews) must be converted: “And so all Israel shall be saved” (Rom. 11:26a), “Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.” (Rom. 11:31), “I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.” (Rom. 10:19), etc.

There are plenty of indications in Scripture that the language of the last days conversion of Israel must begin by Gentiles (i.e. a nation of English speakers). “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.” (Isaiah 45:22, 23).

“Every word of God is pure” (Proverbs 30:5a).

God’s Word is in English. It is a pure version and translation in English. And we even have it pure right down to the details of spelling and so on. Then why would we surrender this great heritage, and think that running to a lexicon etc. is going to be a foundational source for interpretation of the words of Scripture.

Is not God powerful enough to give His Word fully and utterly in English? Is He not powerful enough to give not only sufficiently but fully His revelation in English as much as it was in the Hebrew or Greek? And is not the English Bible superior because it has gathered into one book all the 66 books, and that the language happens to correspond to the one world language, where study of it shows it has the exact and fullness of His written revelation to mankind?

The Authority of Scripture = King James Bible only.

P.S. God did not give the Scripture by inspiration in English, but was powerful enough to cause the preservation and transmission of inspired Scripture to be formed and rendered thus (i.e. given) in the English tongue. In other words, the spirit (inspiration) of the words that were written in Hebrew and Greek are just as powerful today in our King James Bible. While inspiration is a one off process, the product "inspired words" must not diminish in time and space (despite the spirit of antichrist, etc.). In fact, when God was giving the Scripture by inspiration when it was being written, God was fully intending and specifically planning that those words would be all brought together in one volume, one book, that is, one common and standard Bible for the whole world, being the King James Bible. However, God has been faithful, and blessed the Scripture and the users of it at any stage of history, despite persecutions, scattering or impurities (like tiny copying mistakes). God has ensured that all corruptions and even printing errors have, at the last, been eliminated.

Last edited by bibleprotector; 09-19-2008 at 12:00 AM.
Old 09-19-2008, 02:15 AM
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Luke Luke is offline
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I always use that verse in Zephaniah 3:9

It's probably the quickest way to become the laughing stock of any forum :P (except this one)
Old 09-19-2008, 04:46 AM
Scott Simons
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There is a large group of King James promoters that indicate that they use the Greek and Hebrew to clarify the word of God, (I disagree). I have personally have used the Greek and Hebrew in some word studies, but rarely do it now. However I would have to agree that the Greek and Hebrew no longer carries the word of God. It is strictly contain in the King James Bible, English.
If one would like to read God’s Word they are going to have learn to read English, just like people used to have to learn Hebrew before if they where to read the pure word of God.
The point is that man shall live by every word of God and that is no longer found in the Hebrew.
I do believe that men like Peter Ruckman who have done apologetic for the King James have fulfilled a purpose in time in understanding of its use and application. However now there is so much evidence now that the King James is the Bible, to not except that fact is willfully ignorant. The information is so available and so conclusive that to teach any thing else is deceptive or misleading.
There is now a need to be a growing up into that all others are version perversions and are satanic in use and application, and should not be tolerated as acceptable. Just to read a perversion version is infectious and entirely misleading. There is no word of God in any of it, the context makes it so.
So do we need the Greek and Hebrew no not really.
But as Luke said you will get laugh at by a lot of people, and you will be surprised by whom some of them are.
But then again you may know the old saying, the Pioneers catch the arrows.
The truth is the truth and nothing is truer.
Old 09-20-2008, 03:43 PM
Steve Schwenke
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Do we need the Greek and Hebrew? No!
Can it be helpful? Yes
I will use Dr. Ruckman as an example.

Several of Dr. Ruckman's sermons have references to the Greek and Hebrew. It is helpful to a small degree, but not to the degree that most fundamentalists carry it.
Using the Greek and Hebrew to clarify a passage is one thing; using it to "correct" a passage is an entirely different thing.
The main thing I use Greek and Hebrew for is to show the superiority of the the King James Bible to the new versions, and to show the gross errors of the Minority Texts. I rarely go into the Greek or Hebrew, but on occasion have found it helpful as a subordinate point (in other words, it is never a main support for whatever I am teaching - always a secondary support.) A working knowledge of Greek and Hebrew also helps silence the mouths of the Bible correctors. If you can start showing them things from Nestle's, they generally turn and run - they don't want to mess around with someone who might know as much or more than they do!

The KJ translators were well versed in several languages, and this was very helpful to them when they translated the Greek/hebrew into English. Having a knowledge of many other languages only helps in the understanding of our Bible, especially in light of the fact that the KJB is written in British English, not American English. Never short yourself on education!

I disagree with the interpretations given above on Zeph. 3:9 - I believe this is a reference to the Millenial kingdom. One thing English is NOT is pure - it is a mongrel conglomeration of many different languages. Hebrew is very much the same as it was in the Biblical era.

My two cents,

Last edited by Steve Schwenke; 09-20-2008 at 03:45 PM. Reason: additional statement.
Old 09-20-2008, 05:58 PM
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This is my conviction, taket how you will this is what I believe.
I don't know one word in either greek or hebrew. So to try to study the word of God from either wouldn't do me any good. What did Paul say about tounghes,
" Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." 2 Cor 14:19.
If my preacher Got up sunday to the pulpet and began to preach out of the Recieved Text, what would it protfit me If I understood nothing he said. It would be in vain, same with the Hebrew old Testimat. Like I said I don't know enough hebrew or greek to ax were the bathroom is let alone get saved.

So my conviction is this. If you understand Greek and Hebrew, and you use it to edifie Gods holy word, the KJV then I don't think there is anything wrong with that. But If you are using either hebrew, greek german or anything else to correct and to bring dought to Gods holy word then I think you would be playing a fools game, puting yourself in judgment of Gods Word. The very book (word) that will sit in judgment on all creation.

If you think your smart enough to tell God, that his word has errors, then be my guest, but don't do it if Im within a 5,000,000,000,000 mile distance from you.
Old 09-20-2008, 07:23 PM
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stephanos stephanos is offline
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Originally Posted by Luke View Post
I always use that verse in Zephaniah 3:9

It's probably the quickest way to become the laughing stock of any forum :P (except this one)
Isn't that the truth! But we gotta keep on keeping on brother. I no longer even worry about peoples response to my comments about the KJB. There is one reason for this. When I heard that the KJB was the pure and preserved Word of God, I to mocked the very idea. But that seed eventually bore fruit, and now I am VEHEMENT about the KJB. I LOVE the KJB! I want to share this amazing Book of books with all mankind. For it is both Truth and Spirit. This book is the way my God talks to me. I talk to Him through prayer, and through His Book He talks to me. It is such an amazing relationship, and I am not ashamed of it at all.

Holding the KJB high!

Peace and Love,
Old 09-20-2008, 07:30 PM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
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Default God's perfect Book - the King James Bible

Hi saints. I agree with all of the above. Great posts! I do know biblical Greek pretty well and I have tools to help me out with the Hebrew, but in every case and without exception it is the English language of the King James Holy Bible that is my final written authority. I'm glad that I have been able to learn some Greek solely for the purpose of showing how silly the arguments are of those who would try to discredit The Book. I REALLY believe God was providentially involved in bringing forth the pure words of God as they are found only in the King James Holy Bible and it alone is the Standard by which all others are to be measured.

Will K
Old 09-20-2008, 08:51 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Hi Folks,

Amen, Will and all. I even hesitate to spend the time and effort (even if I felt it was available and worthwhile) to do something with Biblical Greek because you can see what a stumbling block it is for the seminarian modern versionists. The stench of arrogance begins to overtake even the lack of Biblical consistency. And the pride of false knowledge overtakes even the petty attempts at weak exegesis and analysis designed to 'correct' the Bible.

Will is one of the few I know who has kept a sound balance, using some Greek savvy only as a tool to help defend the pure Bible. Some others are surely on this forum and a few other forums of Bible defenders. Personally I likely do not have, today, the humility before God and the overall moderation to properly handle the scholastic volatility of trying to integrate Greek expertise with the more basic truth. The simple and true and pure Bible understanding gained by simply accepting and believing the pure and perfect King James Bible. Thank you Lord Jesus for the purity and perfection of the Scriptures.

Oh, and so many times the attempts of the correctors are so weak they can be refuted simply with common sense and a smidgen of research anyway. In a pinch you call on the brethren with a bit more background, only needed occasionally, rarely.

Oh, I have a smidgen of Hebrew background, mostly phonetic stuff, since most of the learning was many years back, and only peripheral to Bible studies. While the situation is similar, at least with modern Hebrew there is a purpose in allowing for conversational Hebrew and reading publications and books in Israel to the folks not English-fluent. That is modern Hebrew, though, not the unnecessary sideline of Biblical Hebrew.


Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-20-2008 at 09:00 PM.
Old 09-20-2008, 09:44 PM
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bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
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Can Greek be used as a help to define, understand or clarify a word or passage?

If it could continue to be, then there would be no point of God giving us His Word in English, because it would not have the full conceptual authority in English.

If we cannot know certainly what our Bible says and means in English (because of restrictions, such as further meaning in the Greek), then God is not all powerful, and His providence is a failure.

I know one, who, in the past, on several occasions attempted to understand the Bible and its doctrine by looking up the meaning of Greek or Hebrew words. But I think that this is unnecessary and even wrong.

Has God really failed to get the full import of the Gospel, right down to the jot and tittle, and every meaning perfect in English?

“But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” (1 Peter 1:25).

The full measure of God’s revelation of the Scripture must be fully given to us in English, and must be for the whole world (which has English as the common tongue).

“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:18).

We cannot even know what jot and tittles belong, and what exactly is to be fulfilled, if we are yet relying upon the mysterious “authority” of the Hebrew and Greek (where there is no standard edition to the nth degree, and where there is no certain meaning which may be accessed by Christians generally, let alone the world universally). But since we have an accurate English Bible which we can understand, so likewise may we believe and see everything it says fulfilled. (Otherwise how can we know when God brings to pass any promise, since we would not be certain as to what the promises actually are, which is to say, having a perfect Word leads to perfect faith.)

“He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.” (Deuteronomy 32:4).

If God has caused His Word to come forth to the world in English, then the English Bible must be perfect. It must be completely perfect as an entity, which would mean that perfection of knowledge of its meaning would not require or necessitate any knowledge of the Scripture contained in any other language. (However, this should not mean that knowing Scripture in another language is a mark of antichrist, rather, it is to be counted as dung. To do good is not of antichrist, but to do good without Christ is as dung.)

Moreover, whereas the King James Bible translators were well versed in other languages, (and many godly men since), we see that God’s providential outworking was there with their translation. But once they translated, what need had they for further translating? And now, once we have the purified presentation of the King James Bible, agreed and settled, why would we think that interpretation of the Scripture requires or finds any edification in looking into the original languages?

It should be a truth to us that INTERPRETATION IS BASED UPON THE AUTHORITY OF THE ENGLISH SCRIPTURE ALONE, and the Holy Ghost’s use of godly teachers in the true Church of the same.

Finally, Zephaniah 3:9 is talking about Biblical English. The English of the King James Bible is indeed pure. It is clear that Bible Hebrew was not a “mongrel language”, and that while English may indeed be “a coat of many colours”, nevertheless, by this seemingly foolish notion of a Gentile tongue should God cause His Gospel to be preached in great power and glory, even in this present time (soon at hand). That is the historicist meaning of “for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.” (Zephaniah 3:8b). Of course, there is also a Millennial meaning of the prophecy, but the Scripture says there are “times of refreshing” (note “times” plural), so the Restitution is not just in the Millennium, but for Christians before even the Great Tribulation, i.e. in this present dispensation. (Peter boldly claimed such promises already for his day, how much more should we, when iniquity does abound!)

Have a read of what the Puritan (Baptist) John Canne wrote in the preface to his Bible with extra margin notes:

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