[Amanda S.]

Greetings Bro. Forrest,

Sister Amanda, I know you agree. We should use the "words" that are given to us in the the inspired, infallible, preserved, Holy written word of God. The pastor is not identified or called a "shepherd," but he is called an "overseer" by scripture.

I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day. I heard a preacher once preach a sermon on this very subject. For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.

Having said that however, you said a pastor is called an overseer.

I Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


It's still not a stretch to call a pastor a shepherd.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day. I heard a preacher once preach a sermon on this very subject. For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.

There is a big difference in this case. Whereas "rapture," "trinity," etc are non-Biblical words, the word "shepherd" is a Biblical word. Therefore, we can not be at liberty to assign that word to a person/office/doctrine that the Bible does not.

[Brother Tim]

And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

It's good you know that, brother Tim. Simply a called servant who should:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[Brother Tim]

BAAA!

[Amanda S.]

Greetings Bro. Forrest

In my opinion, the pastor is never called a shepherd in the Bible.

No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Why would a pastor be brutish over their own sheep? Because when put in a leadership roll often one gets the big head, and dictatorial as some have suggested can happen.


I Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

Thus this verse. The pastor/shepherd is not to lord it over, so to speak, the flock under his leadership, but as stated - an ensample. Even the very nature of sheep is to follow...there is no need to be brutish towards sheep as they will simply follow.

Bro. Tim you said you thought of yourself as a leader not a shepherd...as a shepherd one of your jobs is to be a leader...not like a big mean and tough boss...

Is 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Psalm 1-2 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

I said I was done with this thread but I couldn't resist a couple more comments after studying a bit more.

Forgive me

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Help me out here. Where does that verse call a shepherd a pastor?

I'm being sarcastic -- I know what your point is. But you are reading into the passage.

The Shepherd owns his flock. The elders/bishops/etc are to lead the flock by example (not lording, as you noted).

Is 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Did you look at verse 10? Who is "He?"

Psalm 1-2 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Again, this verse is about the Lord. In my mind you have only strengthened the case against calling pastors "shepherds" with these verses -- they are about God and his flock!

I believe very strongly in the preeminence of Christ. The King James Bible calls Christ the "Cheif Shepherd" and never once applies the title of "shepherd" to a church office. Usurping that title may seem like a small issue to some, but to me, it is robbing Christ of something that is rightfully his and his alone.

[custer]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Amanda, you are right; this is not a stretch, nor is it "reading into the passage!"

What if any of us read the following sentence:
"The women are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their children shall be scattered." Not one of us would have any doubt that the WOMEN in that sentence are MOTHERS, even though the word "MOTHERS" is not used in the passage! Women that have children are "mothers;" pastors that have flocks are "shepherds."

Brandon, I would NOT presume to rob the Lord Jesus Christ of any title...the type of a pastor as a shepherd is definitely a scriptural concept, evidenced by my example above and by the pastor's job description/responsibilities stated earlier by Amanda. The "chief Shepherd" passage (I Peter 5:1-4) leaves the impression that "the elders" are most certainly considered shepherds BECAUSE the Lord is referred to as the "chief Shepherd." The fact that there is an Indian "chief" assumes that there are Indians who are not the "chief" one; the fact that there is a "chief Shepherd" assumes that there are shepherds who are not the "chief" one!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[custer]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

I have always thought of a "bishop" as a "pastor;" is that the concensus here?

So, in I Timothy 3:1-7, there is only ONE bishop over the church as evidenced by the fact that his job is likened to that of A man RULING over his own house (v.5.) [Being the "ruler" makes him the "boss!"] Of course, a husband/father in authority is not just one of a few different sheep in the house! And, the bishop is not necessarily an "elder;" Timothy was younger (I Tim. 4:12.)

Looking at this, I saw something else: the wording in I Peter 2:25 is interesting concerning this subject - "the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." We already know that there are lower-case "bishops," and it logically follows from this verse that there would be lower-case "shepherds." (This is related to - and supports - my post #30.)

As an aside, in my reading this morning, I came across Psalm 111:9 - "...holy and reverend is his name." I believe that's the only reference to "reverend" in the Bible, and it says God's name is reverend. So, I think it's a much more serious issue for Pastors to put "reverend" in their title than to compare themselves scripturally to a shepherd. I would go so far as to say that calling someone "Reverend so-and-so" would be downright blasphemous!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[Amanda S.]

Hello there Sis. Pam!

You brought up a great point! Thanks to it's 'built in dictionary' as my husband calls it I Peter 2:25 is defining bishop as shepherd...Unless one wants to change this standard of defining the words in our KJB. I was intrigued by the capital letters here...nowhere else is bishop capitalized...

There are many examples of the KJB defining itself but here is one example that I love:

Genesis 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

II Chr 34:10 And they put it in the hand of the workmen that had the oversight of the house of the LORD, and they gave it to the workmen that wrought in the house of the LORD, to repair and amend the house:

Ps 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Those are just a few, but taking everything that is said in the Bible about a shepherd, a bishop, a deacon, a pastor, leading, feeding, and caring and putting it all together it makes perfect sense.

Consider this - I Samuel 21:7 Now a certain man of the servants of Saul was there that day, detained before the LORD; and his name was Doeg, an Edomite, the chiefest of the herdmen that belonged to Saul.


Above is an example of there being a chief shepherd...remember I Peter 5:4? The Chief Shepherd? If there is a chief, one can gather that there are under shepherds especially if there is a large number of herds.