[chette777]

Tandy 1650 be careful of calling people "dry cleaners" just because the Bible teaches 3 different NT Gospels and that we recognize the difference between them.

1)the Kingdom Gospel for Israel as found in Matt Mark and Luke, and first few chapters of Acts; 2) the Gospel of Grace by faith for all Men Acts 10 onward, Romans, Galatians, Ephesian, all Letters from Paul; 3) and the everlasting Gospel spoken by an angel standing the midst of heaven to all who survive the Great Tribulation Revelation 14:6.

There is no dry cleaning about it is pure Bible and right division. you must learn to be more graceful and try to understand not everyone is as you are. No one here has called you any names. yet you have called us Hyper-dispensationalist and dry cleaners. those are two terms Ruckman uses to call those who are over dividing and who limit Gods word. we are neither and we do neither. so it would seem to me you are more of a follower of Ruckman than we are as you like to echo and level such names at us for doing what we are commanded to do by scripture.

I admit we all have some maturing to do. But You need some as well

Tandy, I think you may be overreacting a bit, and I hope you will reconsider.
For the record, if you go back and look at the many posts I think you will see that Chette and Bro. George are not "dry cleaners" at all, in fact they have both stood up for water baptism on this thread same as myself.

Let me be clear—no one is angry at you, although we are all probably guilty of sounding like that now and then. We ask tough questions now and then, especially of the new members. But for the most part, we have found a way to get along even though we may not all agree on every issue. This forum stands for something; the infallible, inerrant Word of God. And when the time comes to defend our Bible against the critics and correctors you will see how quickly we ALL RALLY TOGETHER as brothers.

Since you mentioned a man that I know let me also say this...
I will also generally defend Bro. Ruckman, Bro. Gipp and any other preacher who has taken the heat for their stand on the King James Bible. None of them are perfect, they are SINNERS SAVED BY GRACE, same as you and me. I do not always agree with Ruckman's views. I do not always agree with my wife either. I don't think anyone here is "following" these men, but I will defend them against the Bible haters and make no apologies for it. God bless...

[George]

Tandy1650 said:

"The gospel of the kingdom was the good news given to the nation of Israel. They rejected it. The Lord changed the commission after the crucifixion and that commission was given for world evangelism. I'm very tired of hearing dry cleaners dismiss our Lord's command by explaining it away with their pet dispensational systems. I felt it had to be addressed and have done so.

No child will be saved unless the Holy Spirit convicts him of the fact that he has broken God's law and that includes adults. A man that is under conviction will see himself as a sinner guilty before God and in need of salvation. There will be a desire to forsake the sin and turn to God.

I know you don't care about the men I mentioned because they would strongly rebuke you for wrongly dividing the word of God. Since coming to this forum I find that a large percentage of posters are nothing more than little followers of Dr. Ruckman. I hope that is not the case with you. As the title says, this is my last post. I really don't harbor any ill will toward you and will say as a final goodby. May God bless you."

Aloha all,

Tandy1650's Posts are illustrative of the effects our modern “culture” (Humanism) has had on our faith. And he is not alone. If you have read the Posts by solabiblia; freesundayschoollessons; Greektim; Tmonk; and others who came to the Forum before them (some of whom have been banned) you will see certain “traits”, “customs”, “habits”, or “mannerisms” that all of them have and use.

They all “operate” under the same “M.O.” (Mode of Operation). I have observed - it’s always:

Questions - always “questions”: most of which are minor, meaningless, and of little importance; but which, to them, are of paramount importance.

Hyper-sensitive – They cannot (or will not) take any comments or assessments of themselves or their beliefs without being easily “offended”. In other words – they are “thin-skinned”.

Critical spirit – They almost always “criticize” a doctrine; an individual; or the entire Forum, always “nicely” and not “harsh” (of course), but it is still CRITICISM just the same.

Accusatory – They almost always make unfounded “accusations” against an individual or the entire Forum (which they cannot support with evidence).

Evasion – Often times when asked a direct question, they will do everything possible to “avoid” answering it.

Non-specific – If they are pressed to answer a question they will “generalize” and avoid specific details in their answers.

Secretive – They reveal as “little information” about themselves, or their beliefs as possible. In other words, they come to the Forum as perfect “strangers” and keep it that way.

Unfriendly – They do NOT seek out “fellowship” with the members on the Forum; instead they are aloof, standoffish, unapproachable, apart, and generally “unfriendly”.

Please notice – although I did not “jump” on Tandy, and I was extremely courteous to him (for an old curmudgeon ), he still took OFFENSE (Hyper-sensitive); he still CRITICIZED (Critical spirit); he still made unfounded ACCUSATIONS (Accusatory); he still was evasive and avoided answering direct questions (Evasion); he still avoided specific details in his answers (Non-specific); he certainly didn’t demonstrate an amiable, cordial, genial, or “neighborly” attitude from the time he joined our little group (Unfriendly); and we don’t know any more about him (now that he has left), than we did when he first showed up!

WHAT is this all about? I contribute most of this to our "CULTURE". It’s called “HUMANISM”:

See Thread & Posts:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...99&postcount=1
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...27&postcount=5
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...48&postcount=7
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...4&postcount=13
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...3&postcount=14

"HUMANISM" has has INFECTED all of us (in one way or another)! HUMANISM - Psychiatry and Psychology foremost, has affected every single facet of our lives! HUMANISM affects - the way that we approach “education” & “schooling”; the way that we work; the way that we approach life; the way that we interact with each other; the way that we think; the way that we approach God’s Holy words; the way that we treat each other as brethren; the way that today’s churches are set up and operated; and so much more.

Today’s “Christians” (especially in the Western world) are bond servants to our “culture”. They cannot (or will not) break free from it. They refuse to think and act according to the Holy words of God [Matthew 4:4 & Luke 4:4]; - according to Scriptural “principles” & “precepts”. And whether “they” – “pastors”, “teachers”, “evangelists”, etc., WILLFULLY refuse to believe and follow God’s word; or whether “they” (ordinary Christians) fail to follow His word out of IGNORANCE; “they” (ALL) are “without excuse”: [John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.]

One of the purposes for having a “Holy” Bible (i.e. “the Scripture of truth”), in contrast to a “reliable” bible, is so that we (Christians) might not be like the “world” – so that we might “know the truth”, and in knowing it, we might be made “FREE”. The question arises: “Free” from WHAT? Why the influence of the “world” - of course; and in particular (in today’s world) “Free” from the all encompassing and pervasive influence of Godless, insidious, and faithless HUMANISM, that has corrupted practically every single institution, school, college, association, and church in our society ( i.e. “culture”).

Godless HUMANISM’S influence has permeated every single facet of our society to the point that we have become a nation of SOPHISTS (including most “Christians”). How else can you explain why today’s “Christians” act in the same faithless, wily, deceitful, crooked, sneaky, subtle, unethical, two-faced, unprincipled, unscrupulous, and under-handed way as the lost?

Some people on this Forum wonder why I am so “hard” on some people. If you will notice, I’m not “hard” on ALL those who come to this Forum. I try to “hear” people out – at first (like I did with Tandy), but once I can clearly see, by a person’s own “testimony” (i.e. their “Threads” and/or “Posts”; or their “Blogs”; or their web sites; etc.) that they are Bible correctors, or Bible deniers, or “troublemakers”; or “Hereticks” - I “admonish”, or “reprove”, or “rebuke” them according to the circumstances.

I will not waste my time (or God’s) on disingenuous people who are insincere, cunning, deceitful, and deceptive. Peter, James, John, Paul, and the Lord Jesus Christ didn’t waste their time trying to “dialogue”, “discourse”, or “discuss”, spiritual things with the “scribes”, or the “Pharisees”, or the “Sadducees” - they told it like it was (in “plain”, easy to be understood, language), they didn’t spend hours (or days, or weeks) trying to “persuade” them to their “point of view”; and if they didn’t - WHY should I?

In the case of Tandy 1650, I suspect that he is a Calvinist; although I may never know because he refused to answer my question. This man came on the Forum and instantly jumped on a fellow brother in Christ and called him a “Hyper-Dispensationalist” (name-calling). When I “gently” asked him a few questions, he avoided answering them until I repeated my request (“nicely” ), but even then he was not very forthcoming. When I inquired as to whether he was a Calvinist he took one more "cheap shot" at some of the brethren on the Forum and left.

The question that comes to my mind is: IF he was a Calvinist, he should at least be able to ADMIT it! WHY the “reluctance” to testify as to what he believes. If I were a Calvinist I wouldn’t be shy about it, or ashamed to admit it. Today’s “Christians” are “funny” (in the peculiar sense); we’ve become a bunch of gnat-straining sophists biting and devouring one another, while the lost look on (at our shenanigans) and shake their heads (and want no part of us – for good reason) and go straight to Hell, while we are still arguing and debating - often over issues that don’t amount to a “hill of beans”!

In nearly 69 years of life I have observed that, more often than not, “CULTURE” trumps “RELIGION”. The Roman Catholic Church learned that early on, and “incorporated” local “Culture” into the Church. That is why the Roman Catholicism of Mexico, Central & South America, and Asia is “different" than that of Europe. This ability to “adapt” to the world ("culture") helped the Roman Catholic Church to grow wherever it went. The same can be said for all of the “Cults”.

Genuine Bible believing Christians are not supposed to be “conformed” by the “Culture” they live in: [Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.] We are supposed to be “TRANSFORMED”; and the only way that that can happen is through God’s Holy word and by the Holy Spirit working in us - NOT through entertainment, programs, formulas, business arrangements, polls, or any other Humanistic processes.

Most of the Western world’s “Christian” churches have “conformed” (or in the process of “conforming”) to whichever “Culture” they reside in. Instead of being “transformed” and “separated” [2 Corinthians 6:17], they have become part of the world system and are recognized and accepted (by the world) as being the only “legitimate” representatives of “Christianity” (Licensing, tax exemption, etc.). The “problem” is that many of these “legitimate recognized representatives” are NOT God’s children. They have NOT been born again! They are NOT “fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” [Ephesians 2:19] But they have: gone to school, or college, or university, etc. They are “licensed” by the government and accepted as “genuine” ambassadors for Christ, when in reality they are:

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

We must be on guard (especially today) against the kind of men who come to the Forum with their “good words” and “fair speeches” [Romans 16:18]. We do not know WHO they are. We know little or nothing about them, and we are under no Scriptural obligation to treat them the same as those brethren who have proven (by words & deeds) that they are indeed our brothers in Christ.

I take no “pleasure” in admonishing, reproving, or rebuking people. I get weary of doing so. But on the other hand, I cannot stand by (and say nothing) while Bible correctors, troublemakers, or hereticks (strangers to us all) attempt to divide us, or cause confusion, or lead the brethren astray, or worse yet – possibly destroy this Forum.

We are NOT the sole depository of the “Truth”; we do NOT know all there is to know; we do NOT always agree with each other and at times we may get a little "put out" with each other - but where else can we go to be edified by sincere and genuine Bible believers? Where else can we go to enjoy the kind of fellowship we have, and form genuine Christian friendships around God’s Holy words?

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[chette777]

Amen! George, Amen!

[chette777]

I was thinking over the Matthew 28 commission and it seems that there is a whole lot more difference than we may see from the surface.

Jesus commanded that they teach all things he commanded. Jesus did not teach or command the Gospel that Paul taught. so if you are going to follow Matthew28 you have to preach the Kingdom Gospel.

Jesus Never taught water baptism but that which he practiced was John's Baptism not what we term Believers baptism. so if your going to follow Matt 28 you will have to practice Baptism for the remission of sins.

Some other commands of Jesus were, "Mt 5:40-42 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away." so if you are going to follow MAtt 28 you will need to give more than the court says in any law suit, you will need to travel twice as far as anyone would force you to go, and if anyone ask anything from you you must give it. If you don't follow and teach these things you are in violation to Jesus Command of Matthew 28:19, 20

especially this one Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. how many following Matt 28:19, 20 are perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect?

There are so many more questions raised by following Mat 28 than answers. so if you are one who follows Matt 28:19, 20 please read all the things Jesus Commanded his disciples and you will have to teach these as well not just water Baptism for the church today but the law for Jesus taught them to keep the commandments, cast our devils, heal the sick, turn you cheek when someone punches you. and all that is mentioned above plus more.

we can't just pick what we want to teach if we will follow Matt 28:19, 20 and ignore the rest because you will not be fulfilling this commission. Jesus said, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: all things mean all things he commanded as recorded throughout the Gospels

Originally Posted by chette777

Jesus Never taught water baptism...

I'm sorry Bro. Chette but I don't think I follow you on all of this.
You are saying that Jesus NEVER TAUGHT WATER BAPTISM, I guess you are now suggesting that the baptism of Matt. 28 was not water baptism?

[chette777]

That is he never gave instructions on how to baptize or why except in Matt 28. That is all that I meant. We know he did baptize or at least his disciples did. Remember Matt 28 is a commandment not an instruction on Baptism. John however did teach the Baptism of Repentance.

it is interesting to note that other than Matthew 28:19 Jesus never commanded anyone to baptize. That would have fell under teaching all things I commanded. So where do categorize Matthew 28:19? the all that he commanded which was all previous to this commandment in Matt 28:19 not included. Jesus before this commandment never taught anything on water baptism.

Other than John baptism the only other baptism he speaks of is his death to John and James

[greenbear]

I agree with tonybones2112 completely on this issue. I think he is 100% correct. I look forward to reading the material on this board on dispensationalism in depth.

Originally Posted by greenbear

I agree with tonybones2112 completely on this issue. I think he is 100% correct. I look forward to reading the material on this board on dispensationalism in depth.

Then you are just as confused as he is.

[Fredoheaven]

Our Lord Jesus gave us a very specific, clear command in Matthew 28:19 for the believers to follow. This command to baptized "...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" is a compelling evidence of the importance of water baptism from his other commandments.

While, it has nothing to do with our salvation because of Ephesians 2:8 said "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:", it is a mandate fo us to do. Specifically, water baptism is:

1. An Identity. Christ was baptized by the John the Baptist to identify himself with his people as Prophet, Priest and King. John's baptism of water for him is not unto repentance but rather an identification as an awaited Messiah yet his people received him not.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

2. A Preparation. John the Baptist is the forerunner of our Lord and he was the one prepared the way of the Lord. This preparation was that of Christ publick earthly ministry.

Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Christ commanded to baptized and the disciples followed it. Noticed that, following those who beleived the preaching of the Gospel as foretold were baptized and then teach all things commanded by Christ.Of course, some Christ command may not be physically applicable for us today but the spiritual application was meant for us. Peter began preaching and do the same as told in the Book of Acts. The preaching or the message of the Gospel by Peter was the same as of that Paul only the scope of Paul was more of the Gentile.

The message of Christ command is still today hence Christ will be with us even until the end of the world. As a Baptist, will not be hesitant to declare God's saving grace to the lost sinners and immediately baptized believers if it needs be and teach other things corncerning Christ. Scriptural baptism is a must for believers of today.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.