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#111
05-06-2009, 01:01 PM
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Interesting discussion. I never would have expected it to develop like this. I didn't know water baptism was such an issue. I do believe it is for today. To me, it's just as simple as plain obedience in good faith. I can't really add anything else to the posts that so many capable people have already written.
I would say, though, that it's a personal obedience to the Lord. A person shouldn't be baptized to satisfy their Pastor's belief. I'd much rather someone come as the eunuch, "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" |
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#112
05-08-2009, 12:09 AM
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[Yes brother, I understand your point perfectly. Sadly, your point is still just as wrong as it was when you first made it, and that's why none of the Bible believers here have fallen for that stuff brother. Bro. Chette covered it quite well, there is no reason to re-hash, recap, recall or re-invent the ceremonial washings of the OT and the Levites. You are "mixing OIL with VINEGAR," and you can shake that bottle until the cows come home but they won't mix for you any more than they have for any other ultradispensationalist including Dr. Bullinger himself. The term Baptism is never found even ONCE the entire Old Testament. Nothing like a King James Bible to clear up doctrinal issues.
 ]Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. There is nothing like Hebrews in the KJV for clearing up someone who teaches, preaches, and believes in two baptisms when Paul says there is only one, and nothing like the book of Hebrews for clearing up Christians who wish to disconnect the OT from the practices of the Messianic Church and Christ's earthly ministry from the NT because of a denominational tradition. Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. [Simple: Jesus never baptized anyone in believer's baptism for the same reason He never preached the Gospel we preach today. Because our blessed Saviour had not yet gone through the death, burial and resurrection, brother. Paul on the other hand, DID preach the Gospel, WAS baptized and also baptized others. Let's not agonize over multiple facets of a view that not one Bible believer here is accepting brother. I'm not in any way angry at you, but we won't agree on this, and I would prefer you did not address me directly any more on the issue. My last replies were to another member not to you, and anything I post from here on will serve as a "counter-balance" to the views you are being allowed to publish on the forum, simply for the express purpose of DOCTRINAL CLARITY. I'm not trying to be rude, but I would say the same thing to ANYONE ANYWHERE who asked me endless questions about strange doctrines. (Titus 3:9) As I stated early on, may God bless you as you seek His truth on this issue brother. P.S. I noticed you removed the signature you had earlier called "Church Splitter?" never mind, maybe it was a figment of my imagination...  ]I will not address you on this issue again Brother Parrish for the simple opinion that I think like Brother Tim, you are afraid of what I have to say. Whether a person is right or wrong I see a lot of fundamentalists committing the fault of not hearing the other guy out, nor are you willing to put yourself in the other guy's shoes. So I'll leave you with this question: I see people caught up in the doctrinal error of teaching two baptisms when the Scriptures given to all of us by God's inspiration teaches one for the church age. I have the opportunity to discuss that issue that was given to me by God. If this were my forum and you came in here, hearing me teach TWO Lords, TWO faiths, TWO Gods and Fathers of all, tell me what you would do? I'm sorry you, and Tim who started this thread, are not up to discussing the issue, and that in a decent, orderly, and Scriptural manner, since I have not yet seen one single verse of Scripture that disconnects the OT washings or purification and consecration from water baptsim as practiced by the IFBs. My reference as a "church splitter" was a joke, a name IFBs hang on us when no one wants to openly and in a friendly and Scriptural manner discuss the issue. Brother Parrish. Grace and peace brother Parrish Tony Last edited by tonybones2112; 05-08-2009 at 12:13 AM. Reason: spelling |
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#113
05-08-2009, 12:47 AM
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there is only one baptism that matters and it is: 1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Without this baptism none of us would be brothers in the Lord. this baptism is spiritual and not of physical water. |
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#114
05-08-2009, 08:29 AM
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Brother Tony:
I am asking you to refrain from the taunting. It is not honorable. I have no fear to DEBATE this issue with you. I am quite "up to discussing" the issue if I felt that it would be fruitful. Would you respond any differently if it were I who gave the Scriptural references that others already have? I don't think so. Would my words carry greater weight with you than others' words have? I doubt it. So tell me, what use is there to continue a fruitless argument? So one of us can declare himself a winner? I have no interest in such. You are wrong with this doctrine. Two millinia of godly saints have practiced baptism with no doubt in its appropriateness. It will continue to be practiced by faithful followers of Christ until He returns. Only then will it end. How you interpret the Scriptures as a whole affects your point-of-view on this issue, and no amount of Scriptural evidence or "discussion" on my part is going to change you. I ask that you leave my name out of any further discussion by you on this topic. Thank you. |
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#115
05-08-2009, 10:06 AM
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Bro. Tim that is a great post.
This is actually very typical of Bullingerites, they have been infiltrating and splitting Bible believing Baptist churches for many years, many pastors who have been in the ministry for 30 or 40 years know this. You will notice how this member constantly refers to himself in opposition to Independent Fundamental Baptists (IFB's) including those on other forums, and he has made no secret of this going back to his early posts, although several members have picked up on it and also picked up on his subtle references to "dry cleaning" in many of his posts. This is a tactic, and it's done for a reason, because there is a desire to ENGAGE Bible believers on the issue of water baptism, and many of them are obsessed with it. The passages being touted here are not new, they are the STANDARD FARE for Hyperdispenationalism. If you have ever had a Hyperdispensationalist come into your church and start holding home "Bible studies" with your young people then you know this. They love to debate this issue for hours using circular reasoning and in the end it will not edify anyone. He is also telling us that we are AFRAID OF HIS DOCTRINE, over and over. There is a reason for this tactic. Bro. George has clearly stated that Tony is WRONG about water Baptism not being for the New Testament believer. Brandon has done the same. Are we to assume that George and Brandon ARE AFRAID OF TON'YS DOCTRINE? Of course not, but that is exactly what Tony is suggesting when he taunts all of us who do not agree with him. I warned everyone involved several times on this thread, I stated my position from the SCRIPTURES, and have provided the warning of David Walker and Harry Ironsides for others to consider. I am not angry or upset about any of this, but I find it peculiar that he is still being allowed to use these methods on this board, and if it follows the typical pattern I PROMISE YOU, it will get far worse as time goes on. Sadly, this is the typical "pattern" or M.O. that Ultras use to try to convince others that believer's Baptism is UNSCRIPTURAL and PART OF THE LAW, and it ALWAYS HAPPENS after they position themselves as an accepted authority in the group. Unfortunately, as I have already shown—believer's baptism is not simply BAPTIST THEOLOGY, it's BIBLE DOCTRINE, and the problems with Hyperdispensationalism do not stop with water baptism. May God bless each of you as you seek His wisdom on this issue. Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-08-2009 at 10:19 AM. |
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#116
05-08-2009, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
I'd hoped for better responses Tim, but am not surprised at the outcome. I expected some of you to bail out, when the Scripture got deep, but I didn't expect it to be two seasoned Scriptural warriors like you and brother Parrish, I expected it to be a newbie and not what I consider to be part of the Inner Circle here. I expected it to be one of the periodic trouble makers who join to make converts unto themselves. If I've said anything that can be construed as indecent or out of order I will apologize as nothing I have said has been intended as being either. I wish to respond to what I feel led to till the thread runs out of steam or the webmaster tells us to cease. Right hand of fellowship brother, yea or nay? Grace and peace to you Tim. Tony |
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#117
05-08-2009, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-08-2009 at 06:16 PM. |
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#118
05-08-2009, 06:04 PM
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Tony, could you expound on your past, present, future idea of the Church (sorry for getting the terminology wrong)? I don't remember where you said it or the Scripture it was based on. But it does seem to be the basis for the disagreement. Thank you, brother!
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#119
05-08-2009, 06:05 PM
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Have some fun while studying
Ok brothers, the best is to study the matters. It's not really a fight of words. There still can be an Edfiying way from this sort of this thread. What will I offer is a little study on the post of Bro. Tony # 97. Hope this will help...
FIGURING THE MYSTERY OUT. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 is “the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost”, this is exactly referred to in John 3:5 where Jesus said that every man needs to be born again. Water here refers to the word of God, as clearly told in Ephesians 5:26 “That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,” Washing in Titus 3:5 clearly does not refer to water baptism and it is to be viewed as the used of God’s word and the Holy Spirit in the work of regeneration. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. “One baptism” here may refer to as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which eventually comes when one believed Christ as his personal Saviour. The Holy Spirit then indwells or resides in the believer’s heart. 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 2 Timothy 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. The words like “Lord, faith, God and Father” are in the sense unseen and this will indicate Spiritual baptism. While this may be true, nevertheless it may also suggest to the waters of baptism. How can this be? Paul is shooting two or more birds in just one bullet. To note, the following key words may helps us that this verse is also in reference to the subject “waters” of baptism: 1. The word “unity”. This would suggest more than one. Just as there is one body but has many parts and as the Holy Spirit is one but resides or indwells all the believers. 2. The study of the word “one”. This implies the following and may also suggest the truth of a water baptism: One = one, as in “one language and one speech” Gen. 11:1 One = two, as in “they (Adam and Eve) shall be one flesh” Gen.3:24 One = three, as in “and these three are one” 1 John 5:7 see also 1Thes. 5:23 In every case Ephesians 4:5-6 has to do with one but not absolutely one. It is the “Unity of one”. 1. One Lord -can be referred in the New Testament as none other than our Lord Jesus Christ himself and could well be taken the same as our Lord God in Genesis 15:2 “And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?”. 2. One faith -The bible speaks of the Personal saving faith as in Acts 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thou house”. We also have the Practical daily faith as in Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”. Yet faith could also mean the whole body of teaching and commonly referred to as the Doctrinal faith which we are exhorted to “earnestly contend for the faith which once delivered unto the saints” – Jude 1:3. Further, Jesus said: Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 3. One baptism –What we have in the bible is the, Baptism of the Holy Ghost as in Mark 1:8 “but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost”. The water baptism (the Believers Baptism) as in Acts 8:36 “And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?” 4. One God – No problem here, that is one God in three persons see 1 John 5:7. Well the bible was well written as “One God and Father of all” but not “One God and one Father”. Bro. Tony you posted: “Is there anyone here can show Scripturally why John's baptism of repentance is NOT the water baptism of Leviticus 8 The challenge is tough but can be a good point of study. My answer to the question is: There is indeed no scriptural support as to why John’s Baptism is not the baptism of Leviticus 8 but there are Scriptural supports that John’s Baptism is different from washing of Leviticus 8. The Differences of John Baptism and Washing of Leviticus 8. 1. The Practice of Washing in Leviticus 8. The context refers to the pouring or by the least sprinkling of water. It is no more of the idea of immersing, dipping as practice by John the Baptist. To note, initial washing (bathing) of the entire body is a part of their consecration as in Exodus 29:4 and that the daily washing of both hands and feet prior to the service in the tabernacle see Exodus 30:19-20. In John 13, Jesus himself have washed the feet of the disciples. The context is that of pouring not immersion. So the washing never refers to dipping as in the case of Jesus Baptism by John the Baptist. John 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 2. The Place of the Consecration of the Priest. The certain place of Leviticus 8 is in the Tabernacle where the people of God (Israelites) or the “congregation/ assembly” is present. Whereas, John baptism was done publicky in the rivers of Jordan although there were only 4 persons involved. #1, John the Baptist, #2 our Lord Jesus, #3, The Holy Spirit in the form of the dove, #4, God the Father. Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit As I see it, verse 2 speaks in plurality “baptisms” which included the Spiritual Baptism and Believer’s Baptism of today. It doesn’t speak of “One baptism”. As a growing Christians we need to leave that principles behind and go unto maturity. We will only do this if God permits. So if one does not know Christ yet (baptized in the Holy Ghost) why not receive Him as his Saviour? If however, one needs to be baptized into the water why not? It is a command to be obeyed which was followed by Christ himself and his followers down through the ages. God bless… |
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#120
05-08-2009, 06:30 PM
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4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Brother Chette, if that is true, and it is, why do we teach two baptisms? Why do we "follow the Lord in Believers baptism as a profession of our faith" yet refuse to "follow the Lord in the wilderness of the Mohave or Death Valley for 40 days as a profession of our faith"? I've labored to be in a bond of peace with this thread and the members of this thread, at the same time my message is direct and to the point and one many choke on. It seems to be my fault they choke. I'm not the issue and I am not out to choke anyone or exalt myself. I want to know if you personally can give Scripture that denies John's baptism of repentance was NOT the Levitical washings of the OT mentioned in Hebrews. I want to know if you can give Scripture that denies John came to make a "kingdom of priests" under their Messiah, Jesus Christ, who was made . HIGH PRIEST after the order of Mechisedec. I want to know if you can show me Scripture that DENIES John and Christ came to try and fulfil that prophesy of Exodus 19. I'm asking as a brother, not an opponent. I've received negative responses to my participation in this thread because I see people teaching two baptisms instead of the correct one. Now, am I supposed to shut up and be bulldozed? Was I supposed to give my personal opinion without Scripture? Let me ask this a third time to you personally: If this was my forum and I was teaching: Two Bodies Two Spirits Two Lords Two faiths One baptism Two Gods and two Fathers of all What would you do and how would you respond? I'd hope it would be as I have tried to, in peace, with Scripture to back your position. Grace and peace Chette. Tony |
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