[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Luke

Gophgetter, you make a fundamental mistake

No Old Testament Saint had security because no Old Testament Saint was BOUGHT BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

It was not yet shed for them.

Old Testament Saints kept the Law. If they broke the Law, they sacrificed with a repentant heart(which was part of the Law). If they did not sacrifice, they had no covering for sin, and went to hell. If they did, and died covered by a sin COVERING, they died and went to Abraham's Bosom.

Then Jesus died on the cross, descended to the lower parts of the earth, and led captivity captive, and took paradise (Abraham's Bosom) up to Heaven.

No Old Testament Saint was washed in the blood of Jesus Christ until Jesus Christ died for them.

And the Israelites wanted this (Exodus 9 - They could have plead for continued grace that was given to Abraham, but instead, they said "We will do all that you command").

Man, this is good stuff here Luke. You know, I never understood this subject much. I've just read that it's also known as Harrowing of Hell. There is so much that goes on outside of our perception. However, I don't think sacrifice was required for their salvation. You'd have to show me explicitly with the Word where it is clear that this is so. I know that there are scriptures that state that the blood of sacrificial animals could never take away sins.

Hebrews 10:1-6 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

I think it was faith that brought the OT saints into this place we call Abraham's Bosom. And it was their faith that God would redeem them that brought them there. Their obedience to Torah was just a result of that faith, since God was so very clear in his requirements, that it would truly take a reprobate mind to disregard the will of God for Israel in those times. I thank my God that He has raised his standards of those that fear Him (some people think we have an easy covenant, which indeed is true in regards to entering into that covenant, however the truth is that God has raised His standards for His people).

Anywho, thanks for giving me something to think about.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

[chette777]

Of course faith is always involved in salvation but they had to keep the law and commandments to prove their faith was genuine. they could believe and not kept the law and commandments but they would have no salvation. their faith needed to be accompanied by actions to secure God's favor.

Today is the only time you are saved through faith alone and when you believe on Jesus you are eternally saved for he is the Author of Eternal Salvation Heb 5:9

Originally Posted by Luke

Gophgetter, you make a fundamental mistake

No Old Testament Saint had security because no Old Testament Saint was BOUGHT BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

It was not yet shed for them.

Old Testament Saints kept the Law. If they broke the Law, they sacrificed with a repentant heart(which was part of the Law). If they did not sacrifice, they had no covering for sin, and went to hell. If they did, and died covered by a sin COVERING, they died and went to Abraham's Bosom.

Then Jesus died on the cross, descended to the lower parts of the earth, and led captivity captive, and took paradise (Abraham's Bosom) up to Heaven.

No Old Testament Saint was washed in the blood of Jesus Christ until Jesus Christ died for them.

And the Israelites wanted this (Exodus 9 - They could have plead for continued grace that was given to Abraham, but instead, they said "We will do all that you command").

Greetings Luke,

I would have made a mistake if I had made that statement. I never said that Old Testament prophets were bought by the blood of the Lamb. What I said is that there were false prophets in the New Testament that were bought by the blood of the Lamb and they were headed for damnation. I was only repeating what Peter said.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

By the way, thanks for toning it down some.

Peace

[peopleoftheway]

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Gophgetter, you have caused offence to me because the salvation that you speak of is not the salvation I have been taught and believe, I refuse to bite at the bait you are clearly throwing among us anymore, In all honesty what you teach makes me feel physically Ill. What you post in no way edifies me personally and You have caused division in this forum because you have divided yourself against 99% of the forum members. I am simply doing what The Bible commands me to do and I will personally avoid your posts from here on in.

2nd John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1st Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted in the name of the Author Of My Eternal Salvation, The LORD Jesus Christ.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Gophgetter, you have caused offence to me because the salvation that you speak of is not the salvation I have been taught and believe, I refuse to bite at the bait you are clearly throwing among us anymore, In all honesty what you teach makes me feel physically Ill. What you post in no way edifies me personally and You have caused division in this forum because you have divided yourself against 99% of the forum members. I am simply doing what The Bible commands me to do and I will personally avoid your posts from here on in.

2nd John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1st Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted in the name of the Author Of My Eternal Salvation, The LORD Jesus Christ.

You are over reacting. There is no need to be offended by what he's said. It is no division to bring forth scripture to support what one says/asks. If you cannot stand the heat of a biblical debate/discussion then you shouldn't be involved in one. This issue of un/conditional security has been debated since our God moved the pens of men to write our beloved Bible. I have listened to people debate it, write about it, insult people about it etc, and I can still say there is evidence to support both doctrines within our Bible. Personally, I still believe that Salvation is conditional upon faith, and that faith is distinct from belief.

James 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (I don't want to hear that this book is not for me, I'm stating right now, I believe that it is for all Christians, and I've heard the arguments against this belief already)

Anywho, I think we all should take a moment and chill. Pray, read your Bible, fellowship with the brethren, whatever. Just do what you gotta do to relax and put away this spirit that is clouding our minds enough to go at eachother like this.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Gophgetter, you have caused offence to me because the salvation that you speak of is not the salvation I have been taught and believe, I refuse to bite at the bait you are clearly throwing among us anymore, In all honesty what you teach makes me feel physically Ill. What you post in no way edifies me personally and You have caused division in this forum because you have divided yourself against 99% of the forum members. I am simply doing what The Bible commands me to do and I will personally avoid your posts from here on in.

2nd John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1st Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted in the name of the Author Of My Eternal Salvation, The LORD Jesus Christ.

Renee,

I joined this group because I love the Word of God and I love to talk about the Word of God. I'm also very concerned about the preservation of the Word of God and the King James version. I never meant to cause offense or division in this group or any other for that matter. The Bible tells us to seek peace and ensue it. Paul also tells us in Rom. 14 that we should "follow after the things that make for peace".

Having said that, let me say something else. I am also one who seeks the truth of the Word of God. If you could hear my testimony and where God has brought me from and where He has brought me to, you might understand me a little better. Since I have joined this group, I have been insulted more than once and my words have been taken and twisted more than that. But I'm still here because I love the Word of God and the KJV.

You said that you were offended because the salvation that I speak of is not the salvation that you were taught and believe. Guess what? The salvation that I see in the Bible is not the salvation that I was taught and believed. Yet, I found out as I began to read the Bible for myself that there were some verses in the Bible that contradicted what I was being taught. And when I would ask a "man of God" what these verses meant, here are some of the answers I got.

"That verse doesn't apply to you"
"That verse is not for today"
"There are just some things that we won't understand until we get to Heaven"

Let me ask you this. Have you taken those verse that I posted and read them in your own Bible? I challlenge you to do so. You might be surprised to find out that some of the verses in the Bible, not me, contradict what you have been taught and believe.

Peace

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by gophgetter

believed. Yet, I found out as I began to read the Bible for myself that there were some verses in the Bible that contradicted what I was being taught. And when I would ask a "man of God" what these verses meant, here are some of the answers I got.

"That verse doesn't apply to you"

That was good advice. You should listen to it. Instead of telling people Christ isn't powerful enough to save them "for good" without their "help," you should be studying your Bible to figure out these "contradictions" aren't actually contradictions but simply verses that need to be divided.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Diligent

That was good advice. You should listen to it. Instead of telling people Christ isn't powerful enough to save them "for good" without their "help," you should be studying your Bible to figure out these "contradictions" aren't actually contradictions but simply verses that need to be divided.

Brandon, this statement is doesn't help anyone. Instead of telling us that, in essence, we're wrong and need to think like you, you should show us how 2 Peter 2:1 isn't for us. Is this so difficult? At least this gives us a chance to state why we believe as we do.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

[Luke]

If salvation comes by persevering in righteousness and works, then Christianity is no different to any other religion.

[peopleoftheway]

Gophgetter I don't know why you addressed the reply to me as Renee but however.
If I came into your house and told you that you were bringing up your Kids wrong, that the things that you have been teaching them in love are completely wrong and you need to change right now or they will grow up twisted and wrong, would you do it ? would you go against all you believe and listen to a complete stranger? NO of course you wouldn't, the same way that I will not reconsider verses that you post that bring into scrutiny the salvation of My LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ, my Father in Heaven who IS powerful enough to hold my salvation for me, like George and myself mentioned in previous posts, that does not give Christians a license to sin.
In John 3:1-7 the bible is CLEAR that just as a child cannot go back into a mothers womb neither can a believer go back into an unregenerate state.
Are you fully trusting on the LORD Jesus Christ for you salvation? If you are then how can you be dependent on the life you lead to keep you there?
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -Romans 4:5
You know what......I have blessed peace and assurance from My God, that it is he, who I rest upon SOLELY for my salvation, that his "FINISHED" work on that old cross was for ME. That I was a wretched sinner and I was saved by Grace through faith. Oh what a precious Gift I was given of eternal life,
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
My salvation is based upon God's love for this sinner and not of my own self righteousness. I STILL SIN if I said i did not I would be a Liar,but I am absolutely more aware of what sin is and the form it takes and I do NOT LET IT REIGN.
I certainly did not do anything to save myself, except allow Christ to save me, therefore How can I do anything myself to unsave me?
Certainly a Christian can lose the JOY of salvation just as David sings of in Psalm 51:12
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
My LORD, My Saviour, My Rock in whom I put all my trust said
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." and do you know what? I BELIEVE HIM
Closing this, can I ask you, Can a son no longer be a son, can a daughter no longer be a daughter? anymore than a saint can no longer be saved.
Stephanos Brother I have prayed wholeheartedly and studied my Bible with the author and rightly divided as BEST I CAN on this matter, and I have absolutely no malice or bad feeling towards Gophgetter in fact, I LOVE HIM. Gophgetter there is no attack on you at all, I personally am making a statement scripturally to say to you, I will NOT debate any further with you regarding ETERNAL salvation because it causes me Offence personally because Jesus Christ brought me from the brink of suicide and saved me and ANY MAN that comes along and tells me that He cannot hold me there I will certainly not entertain.

In My Saviour's name the LORD Jesus Christ.