[Will Kinney]

Originally Posted by Debau

Thanks for the good article Bro. Kinney.
The only part I'd like to add is my belief that God's Word was complete before the foundation of the world, settled in heaven.



Psalms 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Psalms 57:3 He shall send from heaven, and save me from the reproach of him that would swallow me up. Selah. God shall send forth his mercy and his truth.

Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Hi brother. Good points and great verses. I see it that way too.

Accepted in the Beloved,

Will K

[pbiwolski]

I agree with the forum, another great and useful article. I always like your articles. (Just yesterday, I found your friend's defense of Dan. 3:25 useful in helping a fellow church member who needed some ammo. It did the trick for sure.) So, keep up the good work!

However, I must disagree with the addition to the post.

Originally Posted by Debau

The only part I'd like to add is my belief that God's Word was complete before the foundation of the world, settled in heaven.

Psalms 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

This verse is commonly used to teach that the originals are now "settled" (as if they were pilgrims on this earth!) in heaven. Some take a different approach to assume the written word of God has always existed, using this verse as a proof text.

The problem I see is that the verse states nothing of either sort. The statement made is plainly emphasizing the final authority of God and his word. Nothing can change what God says or has said. The Book does not have to be in existence prior to his proclamations going forth for this to be true.

Otherwise stated, what God says will happen, for it is settled in heaven - in eternity. It will happen regardless of man's interference. In God's eyes, perhaps, it already did happen - therefore it is settled, concrete, and immutable.

Should this Book exist, what language do you suppose it is written in? Is it in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek? Does it contain chapter/verse headings? Is it in the "King's English?" Does it contain the Apocrypha? - just kidding!

I have found that every argument for the existence of the written word of God in heaven before it is "given" to man must streeeeeettccchhhh the scripture to teach it. The verses posted are not strong (at all) for the teaching. If there's more, I'd like very much to see and consider them.

[bibleprotector]

Heaven is not eternal. It was created when the Earth was. See Genesis 1:1.

Also, it is clear that the whole Bible existed in the Heavenly Tabernacle since day one in Heaven.

[Debau]

Psalms 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

The statement made is plainly emphasizing the final authority of God and his word. Nothing can change what God says or has said. The Book does not have to be in existence prior to his proclamations going forth for this to be true.

.

I have no problem agreeing with the first part of this statement. But such as the infinitesimally finished work on Calvary was foreordained, the Word that proclaims it was foreordained also, and manifest in these times for us.

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I also believe that God's Words exist in MANY languages in faithful accurate translations, albeit a supreme translation in the KJB English.

Esther 1:22 For he sent letters into all the king's provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that it should be published according to the language of every people.

Heaven is not eternal. It was created when the Earth was. See Genesis 1:1.

I disagree with this statement. Gen 1:1 concerns the atmospheric and sidereal heavens.

Psalms 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

[pbiwolski]

"Otherwise stated, what God says will happen, for it is settled in heaven - in eternity."

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

Heaven is not eternal. It was created when the Earth was. See Genesis 1:1.

Maybe you'd rather I stated to same truth in different words. What God says will happen, for it is settled by God where He is, it is settled in heaven.

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

Also, it is clear that the whole Bible existed in the Heavenly Tabernacle since day one in Heaven.

Yeah, sure it is. We've been here before.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by Debau

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Christ was foreordained to be the Lamb spoken of by Peter, but this is not a reference to the written word of God.

See Eph. 1.
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (no mention of it being written)
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed (no mention of it being written)
in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What was foreordained was not mentioned to be written, by rather something that God purposed. Watch how this connects to II Tim. 1:9.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

No Book was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began. However, what God purposed was given to us in Christ, but this purpose is not said to be written.

Let's not stop here. But before we go on, I must make it clear that I believe that the KJ Bible is the perfect, pure, and preserved words of God - nothing can be put to it nor anything taken from it...as though (the Book) needed any thing...

Would you say that the original manuscripts (when given) and then our pure Bible today are replicas of sorts to what "exists in heaven?" I am fairly certain that to believe in this "heavenly Book" and also the perfect KJ Bible on earth that you would suggest they are one in the same (so to speak). Is this conclusion logical?

I'll wait for your reply(ies) before continuing. I don't want to misrepresent your view.

[Cody1611]

Great article, Brother Will. It was a blessing to read. God Bless

[QUOTE=Will Kinney;11856]

I am a member of four Bible translation discussion groups and rarely respond for my expertise is in the Field of English translations of the Bible and parts thereof. You can check me out by using your web browser. Use the quotes "William J. Chamberlin" and you will see my book.

I read Kinney's article with great interest. It was most enlightening. In fact, I have downloaded a lot of pages from AV1611 and from the "Bible Protector" to read when I have more time.

Now to my title for this post.

Point one.

"Another "happy coincidence" about the King James Bible is that it is the only one ever sanctioned by ruling king and his name was James, the English equivalent of the Hebrew Jacob. "Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?" Ecclesiastes 8:4."

However, the KJV was NEVER authorized to be read in the church. Only one Bible was ever authorized to be read in the church and it was NOT the KJV.

Point two.

"I believe these seven progressive purifications of God’s words in the English language are to be found in the following major Biblical works that finally resulted in The Bible of the English speaking people: Wycliffe's hand copied Bible of 1395, Tyndale's New Testament of 1525, the first complete and printed Coverdale's Bible of 1535 , the Great Bible of 1539 , the Geneva Bible of 1560 and the Bishops’ Bible of 1568 . These were the 6 previous purification stages until the Bible in English was fully perfected in what was originally called simply The Holy Bible and in more modern times has became known as the Authorized Version, the King James Version or the King James Holy Bible."

For the sake of being accurate so as to not allow questions to enter into the discussion which might seem to water down the real point of what is being said, I must speak. First, Tyndale's N.T. of 1525. This should be clarified so as to not present confusion. There are two 1525 editions. The one from Cologne consisted of only Matthew chapters 1 through 12. This was the handful of printed text that he was able to save as he fled with those who wanted him dead on his heals. The edition which you should refer to which came later in the year was completed and printed at Worms. This is important because most people believe that Tyndale's first complete NT was dated 1526.

Point three.

"The indebtedness of the King James Bible translators to their predecessors is recognized most clearly in the Preface to the reader where they state in no uncertain terms: “Truly, good Christian reader, we never thought, from the beginning, that we should need to make a new translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one; … but TO MAKE A GOOD ONE BETTER, or OUT OF MANY GOOD ONES ONE PRINCIPAL GOOD ONE, NOT JUSTLY TO BE EXCEPTED AGAINST—that hath been our endeavour, that our mark.”

It must be remembered that one of the demands by the king was that they were to use the Bishops' Bible and only change it where the original language text demanded it.

The only thing that bothers me is that the KJV was completed for the Church of England and was to support their doctrines and their doctrines only. Let's face it, the Church of England needed a Bible to offset the popular Geneva Bible which supported doctrines not accepted by the Church of England. That is WHY the KJV was even undertaken. Most people are not aware of that fact. Most people use the KJV because that is the Bible their pastor uses.

The Geneva Bible was very popular and went through 144 editions. In fact, it took the KJV up till 1640s to finally be accepted over the Geneva Bible. The King made it illegal to printed any Bible other than the KJV. So, in order to publish the Geneva Bible in England, the printers dated all those printed in England after the law came into being, 1599.

Since I am not of the Church of England, thus believing as they do, I find it difficult to use the KJV as a study Bible.

The KJV is a most elegant worded English Bible ever produced and because of that, it has been the most publish Bible ever. The fact of the matter is that it has been to most published book of any kind ever. I doubt there will ever be another Bible as elegant as the KJV.

[MC1171611]

I do not necessarily agree with Bro. Kinney about everything he wrote (purifications, other things), but on the other hand you provided a lot of opinions and apparently factual statements without providing a shred of bibliography or factual defense on your behalf. The title page of the King James Bible clearly states: "Appointed to be read in churches." Now either you didn't realize that (meaning you didn't pay attention) or you believe that this statement was added in later. If the former is true, then every word you say, being that you claim authority in the matter of Biblical translation, is suspect; if the latter is true, then you must provide some sort of evidence to support such a claim.

The issue of Tyndale's Bible is irrelevant; from what history I know from that period, Henry VIII had Tyndale strangled and burned at the stake for translating the New Testament (and Psalms, as I recall), but eventually he authorized Miles Coverdale to publish his Bible which consisted of Tyndale's New Testament and Psalms and Coverdale's own translation of the Old Testament. That is another instance of a royally-authorized translation of Scripture.

As to your final point, the actual reason behind the translation, again, is irrelevant: the King James Bible clearly and decisively refutes all false doctrine, including that of the Church of England (Anglican Church; sorry TA ). Infant Baptism, Clergy/Laity, the Eucharist, and other doctrines (if I recall correctly) are soundly and irrefutably slashed and hacked to pieces by the "sure word of prophecy" which is the King James Bible. While you again provide no bibliography for this claim, it makes no real difference: I can show a Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist, Calvinist, Mormon, Amish or Baptist where he is wrong from that Book every time; It is without equal, It is without error, and It is God's written word for mankind today. Its "elegance" aside, the King James Bible is the most incredible piece of literature ever written; within Its pages is a complex and inexplicable cross-reference system, Its readers learn a grasp of the English language that schools haven't been able to teach in a hundred years, and most of all, the Holy Spirit of God not only speaks from the WORDS of that Book, but He inhabits that Book and brings it to life in the heart of the discerning believer. No other translation or perversion (as all new versions are) has that kind of power. That's the POWER of the KING that Bro. Kinney was talking about.

[Brother Tim]

MC, I do not often reprint large sections of adjacent posts (unnecessary repetitiveness) but yours bears not only repetition, but storage in my "important declarations" file. You nailed the whole lid with one slam of the hammer! [I took the liberty of emphasizing one portion, lest any overlook it.]

It is without equal, It is without error, and It is God's written word for mankind today. Its "elegance" aside, the King James Bible is the most incredible piece of literature ever written; within Its pages is a complex and inexplicable cross-reference system, Its readers learn a grasp of the English language that schools haven't been able to teach in a hundred years, and most of all, the Holy Spirit of God not only speaks from the WORDS of that Book, but He INHABITS that Book and brings it to life in the heart of the discerning believer.