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Old 02-28-2009, 02:28 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
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God uses the word Beginning to communicate to us a starting point but God has no starting point and his measurement of time is not the same as ours. that is why Peter said a day is as a 1000 years and 1000 years as a day. I am not saying their was not way of time quantum. But from Gen 2 the earth was created before our current time measurement was established that is clear by Gen1:1 and Gen 1:3-5.

We are still developing this very imports point in our view of the Gap. All Peter is trying to convey is that God time quantum is different than ours. that verse of Peter's describing time different is what cause the Day Age theorists to stumble. Because they want to impose on God our current time quantum and it can't be done because our time quantum has a starting point and it is not at the beginning but 6000 years ago. it has an ending too found recorded in Rev 20-22

the face of the deep is the firmament as a frozen sea the solid liquid form the container for which all the rest of 6 day creation is encased. we know outer space also known as DEEP space is not frozen but is a vacuum. but if we were able to reach the fullness we would run into a solid wall of Ice keeping us from entering God's Abode or the third heaven.

Darkness upon it the face of the deep is a fact that shows something that never existed before. You will notice God calls for light he does not create light and when that light enters in then there is a separation one from the other and from that point a time quantum of 12 hour evening and 12 hour days is established. then later he creates lights Sun, moon and stars with a dual purpose to carry out the continuum of the Time quantum and for lighting the earth.

Once God removes himself from the creation process after the seventh day and he had no lights to light the earth would fall into total darkness, all of creation would have died because science proves that the Sun light is need to propagate plant life, we need it for to develop vitamins A and D especially.

look at the words again, the world that then was and the But the heavens and the earth, which are now. Were the heavens eve flooded by the flood of Noah? the previous verse speaks only of the world then was not the heavens. the next verses in Peter speak of a heaven and an earth. all that was created in the 6 days current creation will be destroyed just as the world that "then was" was destroyed.

if you are a fan of Hovin or Morris I have read a lot of their material and studied their DVD's. Remember this they spend most of their time one debunking Evolution, speaking about the garden of Eden, and the atmosphere before the Flood of Noah and how animals live long. And we don't disagree with them on that area.

They spend very little time speaking about the Gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. they simply say it never existed and that 1:2 is the beginning. For us Gen 1:2 is the Beginning of the six days creation of our current Earth state. there are very few verse and you will have to get God mind on what the Purpose of the Earth was, where was Lucifer's throne (it was below the stars of God, not the stars created in Gen 1:14-19, the north of the north is a reference point for us today just like beginning in 1:1, a point that we can find. it is a place of entrance into the firmament according to Ruckman.

Their teaching on the verses in Job, Peter, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isiah, Psalms and others that support a Gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 is very very shallow and often Kent Hovin will change the meaning of the word to fit his Young Earth view. but when we do the same we meet it with ridicule and scorn because of the prejudice against a gap theory because of the Theistic Evolutionist.

What these men teach on is basically between Gen 1:3 through Gen 7, and today's current world is only 4000 plus ears in existence. it is mainly just young earth theology. We believe that the current creation as we live in it is only 6000 years oldand that it began with a 6 day creation period.

Last edited by chette777; 02-28-2009 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 02-28-2009, 06:47 AM
Winman Winman is offline
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Chette wrote:
Once God removes himself from the creation process after the seventh day
What are you talking about? There is no creation "process".

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Your group is twisting the very simple and staightforward account that God gives us in His Word. Gen 1:31 tells us God saw EVERY thing he had made. This would include Satan and the angels. And it was VERY GOOD. God made this observation on the SIXTH day. So obviously, Satan had not fallen at this point.

Instead of listening to these teachers, why don't you listen to God's words? Nothing complicated here.

Gen 2:1 tells us the heavens and earth were FINISHED and all the host of them. There is no on-going process. And vs. 2 tells us God ENDED his work, and then re-emphasizes it by telling us on the seventh day he rested from ALL his work.

This sounds like Theistic Evolution to me. These are folks who try to reconcile the creation account with the false teaching of evolution. Evolution believes that creation is on-going and is still occuring. God clearly and simply states that all his work was finished and ended. God did not step out of the creation "process", creation was finished.

Now, that being said, there is a future creation coming.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So God will create again in the future. But this is not a continuation of an on-going process, it is altogether new.
Old 02-28-2009, 07:15 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
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6 days of creation. it is a process of time in which God created the current creation we enjoy. this is not a continuation of the old. It is a new creation epoch all together and the first thing created is not light but time.

Satan and Angels were created before the earth for they sang for Joy when God created it. Job 38:4-8 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? This is not about the Six day process of current creation or the flood of Noah. it is in reference to a period before time Existed in Gen1:2. they are not part of the six day creation. And God can create anyway he wants. The Angelic beings (arch angles, angels, cherubim, and seraphim's) were part of a creation without time, that is eternity God calls the beginning. but that beginning is not Gen 1:2 that is the beginning of the 6 day creation that must first have time created to even be 6 days. And Besides when did the sea need doors to shut it up in the six days creation? they didn't for they were already shut when you come to Gen1:2 that is why the earth was cover in waters. the earth was already fastened in heaven were it was to be. that didn't takes palce in the 6 days and it is not mentioned there at all either.

Gen 2:1 all the host of them is in reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars not to Angelic beings. It is God rehearsing what took place between the creation of time and the sixth day. Not what took place in Eternity before time.

Another interesting point is when Lucifer exalted his throne? That was a major event and if it took place during creation surely it would have been serious enough for God to take time out from his creation process of 6 days to deal with it. And because it was done during the current time quantum it would have merited to be mentioned as to time and length in the scriptures. unless you think the reference in Isaiah is only speaking about the King of Tyre.

We do not believe in Evolution in any way. We believe the fossil record records a flood of life forms that lived right along side man up unto the flood. We do not believe that creation is on going. God will create a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH so Isa 66:22 has to be reconciled to Rev 20 and 21 it is not the old Heavens and earth but a new Heavens and Earth. We don't disagree there so please don't try an make is sound as if we do. Remember before the Gen 1:2 there is only a Heaven, after time quantum is established in Gen 1:2 only later does God create a plurality of heavens with in the firmament separating it from The heaven of God or God's Abode above the firmament.

You are currently living in the result of the six day creation or what we termed the current creation. But if God makes all things new, and we have the promises of a new heavens and earth. we agree again this is a new creation just like the 6 days creation was a new creation. It is you guys who make the points that support continuing creation known as Progressive creationism from Gen1:1 to Gen 1:2. We don't agree with that.

It is good you can see God will create anew. He did it once before and he will do it again.

Last edited by chette777; 02-28-2009 at 07:27 AM.
Old 02-28-2009, 07:24 AM
Winman Winman is offline
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look at the words again, the world that then was and the But the heavens and the earth, which are now. Were the heavens eve flooded by the flood of Noah? the previous verse speaks only of the world then was not the heavens. the next verses in Peter speak of a heaven and an earth. all that was created in the 6 days current creation will be destroyed just as the world that "then was" was destroyed.
It is clear that a change in our atmosphere took place at the time of the flood. Before the flood there was no such thing as rainfall. This does not mean there was not water in our atmosphere, but it was contained.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

There is no rain recorded until the time of Noah.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

So, in Gen 2 the Bible clearly states that God had not caused it to rain upon the earth. However, there must have been a substantial amount of water stored in our atmosphere. And in Gen 7 God opened the windows of heaven. To me, the word windows suggests some type of containment. Not only do the windows on our house keep things out such as the heat or cold, but they also keep things in. We often open the windows to let stale air out of the house. And windows is the perfect word, because windows are transparent.

Since that time we have had rainfall. So there was a change in our atmosphere or heaven.

Now this is just a theory of mine, but I believe the heaven (outer space) changed as well. I believe that when the fountains of the deep broke up that there were gigantic geysers of water that shot not only water, but rock into space. This would account for many features such as comets, the asteroids, and even the craters on the moon. One of the best arguments for a young earth is comets. Comets cannot be more than 10,000 years old because they would have been depleted long ago. As a comet passes the sun it loses material, this is the long tail which is easily seen. Astronomers know comets contain water, but cannot agree where this water came from. I believe the water came from earth and was ejected in Noah's flood.

Last edited by Winman; 02-28-2009 at 07:31 AM.
Old 02-28-2009, 07:34 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
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do some research go here and read some of our view

As far as the comet thing I can go along with that.

you will noticed the window and doors of the Seas whether above or below were already established in the earth and in heaven. they were not created in the 6 day creation for surely God would have mentioned it. he only separates them by a firmament and separates them for land to appear in that case he calls it gathered the waters.

I agree there may have not been rain on earths until Noah's flood, just because the earth is covered in waters in Gen1:2 doesn't mean it got there by rain.

Last edited by chette777; 02-28-2009 at 07:39 AM.
Old 02-28-2009, 08:02 AM
Winman Winman is offline
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I have studied evolution for many years, I have visited that site some time ago. I disagree with it right from the start. As I have stated, this theory is trying to reconcile the biblical creation account (which is true), with evolution which is false. That is shown right in the introduction:


Is there a time-gap between the first two verses of Genesis? On this website you will learn about a controversial, lesser known literal interpretation of the Genesis narrative that does not contradict the scientific evidence for an Old Earth. Commonly called the "Gap Theory" or Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation, it is a theology much older than Darwin and the Theory of Evolution. It is based on the Scriptural fact that in the second verse of Genesis, the Holy Bible simply and clearly states that the planet Earth was already here (but in a ruined state) before the creative process of the seven days even begins. Understanding this Biblical mystery begins with the precise wording of this New Testament cross-reference:
Why mention Darwin and the Theory of Evolution?? Obviously this author believes the universe to be many billons of years old as evolution teaches, and that evolution is a continual process.

As a Bible believer I reject evolution. I believe the theory is 100% false. I believe God created everything in six days (not 7 as the author states)

Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

So, this author does not know his Bible very well.

The author does not understand 2 Peter 3:5-7 either. Look and read for yourself.

2 Pet 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The author fixates on the phrase in vs. 6 "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" and says the only time the world was completely covered in water was in Gen 1:2

The problem is that the author overlooks the phrase in vs. 5 "and the earth standing out of the water and in the water".

This is not referring to Gen 1:2 because clearly it mentions the earth standing out of the water, DRY LAND.

And God has already told us when the dry land first appeared in Gen 1:9-10

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

So, the world mentioned in 2 Peter 3:5-7 has to be AFTER Gen 1:9
Now here we have both the earth standing out of the water and in the water. The earth standing out of the water is the dry land, and the earth standing in the water is the ocean floor.

Then the author again shows his belief in evolution by using their geologic ages.


The Bible itself provides insight into a great mystery in Earth's natural history at what is known as the Pleistocene - Holocene boundary. Science remains at a loss to definitively explain the Ice Age and the anomaly of the mysterious mega fauna extinctions across the face of the Earth about 12,000 to 10,000 Radio Carbon years ago. Geologic evidence from that period indicates extraordinary global massive volcanism, gigantic tidal waves, seismic activity on a vast scale, and extreme climate swings on the Earth over a geologically brief period of time. It is no coincidence that the Bible at Genesis 1:2 describes the Earth as flooded, desolate, and in darkness in the timeframe closely corresponding to these catastrophic events in the Earth's natural history. Clearly, these two mysteries are linked.

The flood of Noah easily explains all of these events. The fountains of the deep were broken up. Huge geysers shot water high into the atmosphere, where it would have cooled, frozen and returned to earth as snow. Many animals would have been buried under this snow. There would have been volcanoes, tidal waves, the formation of strata, everything.

This fellow simply does not believe God's Word.

Last edited by Winman; 02-28-2009 at 08:19 AM.
Old 02-28-2009, 08:18 AM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
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Well I don't agree with Gaines R. Johnson on the Sun moon and Stars being destroyed 12,000 years ago. and some other things but his work in some areas is excellent.

also none of the sites I have visited discuss the creation of Time Gen1:3-5. all including Gaines assume time has always been 24/7 constant. But for us we see time as a creation from which a time quantum (measurement) was established for the 6 days of creation on the first day of current creation.

we cannot argue with the fact that both the Hebrew and the English for "without Form" indicate destruction and desolation the meaning of the words in both languages are the same. and are only used twice in scriptures

we do not believe in Evolution and I will not go into debate over it. Kent Hovin, James Morris Gaines Johnson and others go to great lengths to combat it and I agree on that matter there is not evolution.

Again I agree the flood of Noah explains the fossil record.

As far as the Earth standing in and standing out. the Earth was standing in and out of the waters in Gen1:2 for on day two of Creation God creates a firmament (which later he spreads out the stars of our heaven for times and seasons and light) to separate the waters from which the earth was in and out of. The waters the earth was out of are now currently above the firmament of the stars, and the water the earth was in are our seas and atmosphere.

You would have to make the earth in Gen 1:1 also mean dry land to with that logic.

Not only that after the flood the atmosphere changed but the firmament was still there containing the Stars of heaven just as found in fourth day. Ge 1:17-19 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. If the firmament was the atmospheric Canopy that Hovin and others claim then there would be no firmament today for that canopy was partially where the waters came from for Noah's flood.

Last edited by chette777; 02-28-2009 at 08:33 AM.
Old 02-28-2009, 08:42 AM
Winman Winman is offline
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Well time is a very interesting subject. One of evolutions arguments is a Radiometric dating. This is all based on the belief that the speed of light and thus radioactive decay is constant. However, in the last few decades there has been substantial evidence that the speed of light has been slowing, and might have actually been billions of times faster just a few thousand years ago.

This evidence was first introduced by a Christian physicist in Austrailia named Barry Setterfield. He wrote a detailed paper on this back in the 80's. Of course, secular science ridiculed his study at first. But since then, numerous other physicists have shown that there is indeed strong evidence that the speed of light is slowing. This is a big controversy in science as it would overthrow Einstein's Theory of Relativity and the Big Bang theory. But more and more scientists are accepting this new view.

Now, this stuff is a little over my head, but basically it says that radioactive dating is on a different time scale than earth which is based on rotations around the sun and the revolution of the earth itself.

So, although the world is only about 6,000 years old in earth time, it can be billions of years old in radioactive time. This would explain how starlight from stars many millions of light years distance could be seen on earth although the earth is only about 6,000 years old. If light was billions of times faster, it could have reached earth almost instantaneously, even though these stars are very distant.

Here is Barry Setterfields site, there is lots of good information here.

Some of this is very complex and difficult to read and understand. Try some of the Setterfield Simplified articles first.

As far as the earth being "without form", this doesn't necessarily indicate destruction to me. It was just a ball covered completely in water, it had no features. When God caused the dry land to appear, then the world took on form or design.

Barry Setterfield believes in a Plasma model of creation, there might be something to this. He actually discusses what God might have meant by "void and without form" in Genesis at the end of the article.

Now, I don't agree with everything Barry Setterfield says. For one thing he often quotes other versions of the Bible (as well as the KJV).

Last edited by Winman; 02-28-2009 at 08:57 AM.
Old 02-28-2009, 04:40 PM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
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Thanks for that info.

Most of the theory of Einstein and and the radiocarbon dating again are things brought to light in the current time quantum. and if Light is slowing it would make sense since their is a limit as to how far darkness is contained.

The word say God Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. and that God Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens Ruckman brought up a good point to which he said if God flung out the stars he created from the point where He made them (the earth) they would appear to be moving away or that the heaven was expanding from the earth (which it does) and if they traveled as fast as God could fling them out into the firmament. Because of the laws of Physics they would eventually begin to slow down.

I think as the new earth will be without seas in Rev 22 so it was in it's original form. But it is clear there will be a pure river waters of life flowing from the Throne of the Lamb and God. that is after the current time quantum is removed though also.
Flowing water can be used to calculate time however there are many factors that would influence that type of time measurement.

Peter point when he mentions a day as a 1000 years and 1000 years as a day. He is not giving us dynamic equivalences but rather letting us have general understanding that God's time quantum is not equal to our current time Quantum which was established on day one and continued to be carried out by the Sun. Moon and Stars created on day four.

So a the question is if that being true, how long did the heaven and Earth of Gen1:1 exist before the established 24/7 time quantum created from verse 3-5 on day one? Until we can know what God's Eternal time measurement is that will remain a mystery. And I don't think we will wont know it until we are glorified in Christ. Our current understanding of time is based on our 24/7 time quantum so when we think of eternity we have a tendency to see in those values.

Last edited by chette777; 02-28-2009 at 05:02 PM.
Old 02-28-2009, 04:56 PM
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MC1171611 MC1171611 is offline
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Back on the OP, I have a question for the "non-gappers":

Why not? I understand that you don't recognize the Biblical support for the Gap (it's plain as the nose on my face to me), but when there is a way to believe both a Gap and hold a Young-Earth Creation viewpoint, and if it were to not contradict Scripture whatsoever, why would you refuse to acknowledge at least the possibility?

I was a staunch Hovindite (still mostly am!) back in '02-'03 or so, but a man from Bro. Sturgeon's church in Montana showed me some Scriptures that didn't mesh with the rest of the view I held. Basically, my quandary is why people simply refuse to see what the Bible so clearly says when viewed Dispensationally, simply because they think the Gap was invented to fit evolution into the Bible.

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