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  #31  
Old 02-15-2009, 09:25 PM
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2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I know, the committed "Calvinist" believes it is all and every elect or chosen person. Furthermore, the whole world refers to the whole elect or chosen world.

Brother George, I am looking forward to your teaching on "Limited Atonement" which I personally think is the most heretical doctrine in the wilting T.U.L.I.P arrangement. All, every, whosoever, the whole.
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  #32  
Old 02-16-2009, 01:32 AM
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I've been reading about it in Ruckman's "Why I am not a Calvinist". A whole chapter (there are only 5 chapters I think) is devoted to this doctrine of "eternal begatting".

Bob Ross wrote a book about it (The Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ). The title is biblical, but throughout the book, he substitutes sonship for begatting and says Christ was begotten in eternity. This is a doctrine that is entwined in unconditional election. Essentially, Calvinism has two gods. One that is begotten and one that is unbegotten.

It's based on a misunderstanding of Psalm 2:7

We read it as

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

- Now, most people would read it as Christ being begotten when He was born. Others, rightfully read it as Christ being begotten when He was raised from the dead (Acts 13:33 - word for word quote).

Calvinists read it like this
Psa 2:7 I will declare the ETERNAL decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; (omit this day) I have begotten thee.

I'll find some quotes. I am sure Vance covers this in "TOSOC". It's part of the Nicene creed, and Michael Servetus attacked this error and was burnt at the stake for it (although, in doing so, servetus also denied the deity of Christ, but he was right about there being no eternal begatting).

Last edited by Luke; 02-16-2009 at 01:37 AM.
  #33  
Old 02-16-2009, 01:36 AM
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Here is the Nicene creed (one of the staples of credal Christianity). Most of it is spot on. I have highlighted the dodgy bits.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
  #34  
Old 02-16-2009, 08:26 PM
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I was trying to remember something George taught on the word ALL and every. it had to have qualified understanding of exclusive or inclusive something along those lines. I think in this case it is exclusive meaning it is not every man

George, what is the link to your post on this?

and Luke, that creed has Baptismal remission of sins so they don't believe they are saved by Christ finished work of the cross but by baptism. An RC doctrine brought over into protestant theology.

Last edited by chette777; 02-16-2009 at 08:31 PM.
  #35  
Old 02-17-2009, 01:28 AM
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Yeah, I know.. I was quoting it because of the "eternal begatting" of Jesus Christ, and also highlighted the other dodgy bits in it
  #36  
Old 02-17-2009, 07:29 AM
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yeah the begotten stuff is a bunch foolery. We all know he was begotten when he was born in his flesh. the hyper dispensational Calvinists will get off into some really crazy stuff. but that's what happens when you get away from the word into the doctrines of men. they will twist the doctrines to their own destruction.
  #37  
Old 02-17-2009, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
"I was trying to remember something George taught on the word ALL and every. it had to have qualified understanding of exclusive or inclusive something along those lines. I think in this case it is exclusive meaning it is not every man

George, what is the link to your post on this?
"
Aloha brother Chette,

I do not recall ever addressing this issue on the Forum. However, with the exception of a very few verses, the meaning of the words ALL & EVERY are clearly defined and determined by the context of the verse (verses) wherein they are found - That much should be admitted by all men (and women) who are reasonable and sincere, and who are not out to prove some private interpretation or “pet doctrine”.

The following verses will serve as EXAMPLES of “context” determining “meaning”:

ALL - INCLUSIVE {All (of mankind) – With No Exceptions}

Psalms 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Galatians 3:22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

ALL - INCLUSIVE {All Without Exception}

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

ALL - EXCLUSIVE {All With Exception}

Genesis 6:12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

ALL MEN {All Without Exception – Context Determines Meaning}

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

ALL MEN {All With Exception – Context Determines Meaning }

Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

So far, I think almost everyone would be in agreement with my assessment of the preceding verses. However, as I said, there are a few verses where the meaning of “all” is in disputation amongst Christians. The following verses of Scripture are some EXAMPLES:

ALL MEN
{Context Determines Meaning – The Meaning Is In Disputation Between Christians}

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Due to time limitations, and the fact that I am nearly finished with my next Post, I will not deal with these verses at this time, but I will deal with them (and many more) in my next Post on “LIMITED ATONEMENT.
  #38  
Old 02-17-2009, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Aloha brother Chette,

....with the exception of a very few verses, the meaning of the words ALL & EVERY are clearly defined and determined by the context of the verse (verses) wherein they are found - That much should be admitted by all men (and women) who are reasonable and sincere, and who are not out to prove some private interpretation or “pet doctrine”.
And ALL of God's people in EVERY language said amen!
  #39  
Old 02-18-2009, 04:00 AM
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George,

My memory goes as I get older but it may not have been you or another, it could have been something I read from Will Kenny, or just someone else I read online or in a book. I just can't remember but you hit it on the head.
  #40  
Old 02-18-2009, 12:40 PM
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Unlikely to have been from Will Kinney. He is a Calvinist, although rarely speaks about it (and maybe he rejects Limited Atonement).
 

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