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  #61  
Old 06-24-2009, 01:06 PM
whirlwind
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I apologize for my "disjointed ramblings" on this subject. Allow me to explain this from a different angle. Concerning the "two" witnesses.....

Revelation 11:8-9 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
As the bodies of the witnesses, "shall lie in the street of the great city," we know it is more than two entities. It is two groups of witnesses. The great city is not one literal city but is world-wide. Unless of course....you believe the great city is Jerusalem???
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  #62  
Old 06-24-2009, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
I apologize for my "disjointed ramblings" on this subject. Allow me to explain this from a different angle. Concerning the "two" witnesses.....

Revelation 11:8-9 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
As the bodies of the witnesses, "shall lie in the street of the great city," we know it is more than two entities. It is two groups of witnesses. The great city is not one literal city but is world-wide. Unless of course....you believe the great city is Jerusalem???
Whirlwind,

"The great city" has to be physical Jerusalem in this passage.

It is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem, in our Lord's own words.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.


The context of the passage shows the great city is Jerusalem.

The temple of God will be in Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Jerusalem is the holy city and is where the anti-christ's throne will be.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
  #63  
Old 06-24-2009, 05:33 PM
whirlwind
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Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
Whirlwind,

"The great city" has to be physical Jerusalem in this passage.

It is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem, in our Lord's own words.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
That is a difficult verse for me to understand. There are prophets that have perished out of the city of Jerusalem so it cannot be the literal city being written of. Is it the spiritual Jerusalem, believers? There is more being said in that verse than I see.

Quote:
The context of the passage shows the great city is Jerusalem.

The temple of God will be in Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Yes....but what does the angel measure?
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the Temple of God, and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Quote:
Jerusalem is the holy city and is where the anti-christ's throne will be.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Jerusalem is the HOLY CITY but not the great city. Only once was it refererred to as the great city and that was an error.
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.
The texts omit "great" and is written as....the holy city Jerusalem. And, that city is us....believers, not a literal city.



Quote:
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Our Lord was crucified just outside the gates of Jerusalem but the point is the great city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. That was what/where He was crucified. Looking at it in a spiritual way as it is spiritually called, Sodom represents wickedness while Egypt represents worldly lusts. He died for our sins, for our wickedness and lusts. He was crucified in the great city of the world....Satan's realm. And, that is where the witnesses are.
  #64  
Old 06-24-2009, 06:01 PM
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You're one "spiritual" guy, whirlwind.
  #65  
Old 06-24-2009, 06:14 PM
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Moses not only represents the Law but he is also a prophet. Both Moses and the LORD agree that Moses was a Prophet Duet 18:15, 18. so representing the Law and being a prophet is no proof that Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses.

the Only claimed sound biblical proof text are verses that show similar acts of signs and Miracles the LORD will do during the great tribulation. Neither man is mentioned by name. Elijah is said to come to pave the way for the Lord and that was done in John the Baptist and Jesus Clarified that point. But many do not, as Jesus said want "to receive it". Matt 11:7 A prophet like unto Moses came in the person of Jesus.

Now Why is it everyone speculates that these two witnesses will be or must be Elijah and Moses? only because of the no rain, water to blood and plagues? that is no proof in and of itself.

Many make Mal4:4 a two part prophecy but it need not be. for John the Baptist did indeed turn the hearts of the Fathers to their children and the Lord came without wrath. It is clear that the visitation of the Lord was two part but only after the crucifixion. but because of that we don't need to make Mal 4:4 two part just because the Lord's visitation is two part.

So any clear scriptures that can show that Elijah and Moses will indeed be the two witnesses then we can all agree. other wise the Lord is able to prepare to unknowns Like John the Baptist. who Jesus said was Elijah to come.

Now I am saying this not to say I am right but we have a tendency to try and put things in boxes and the Miracles, signs and wonder of Rev11:6 is not proof that it is Elijah and Moses. Most like me learned it from Scholars.

Can some one post the OT reference addresses to the Prophecies of Elijah and Moses coming in the last days.

I am open to what ever the Lord wants me to know concerning the two witnesses but for some reason he chose not to reveal them.

Last edited by chette777; 06-24-2009 at 06:24 PM.
  #66  
Old 06-24-2009, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by whirlwind View Post
Yes. Moses represents the law and Elijah the prophets. Together, the law and Word are the two witnesses to the world. Who delivers His law and His Word? The many witnesses and they are the olive trees and the candlesticks. They are His elect...they are those of.....
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev. 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

De 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

You're allegorizing/spiritualizing where none is necessary, the Law and the "Word" cannot be killed. The Word of God jhas already been slain, buried, and resurrected.

Grace and peace WW

Tony
  #67  
Old 06-24-2009, 09:07 PM
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[QUOTE=greenbear;22724]

"The great city" has to be physical Jerusalem in this passage.

It is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem, in our Lord's own words.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.[/UNQUOTE]


How very interesting, sis! I honestly never noticed that particular Scripture before! Thanks for pointing that out!

Jassy
  #68  
Old 06-24-2009, 10:31 PM
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I found out clearly who the these two witnesses are.

it is in cross references to Revelation 11::4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zec 4:3, 14And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. . . Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
  #69  
Old 06-24-2009, 10:38 PM
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All joking aside if I run all the cross references of the powers of the two witness they agree to Moses and Elijah.

but what does make it clear that it is Moses an Elijah is the fact that only these two men ever stood with the Lord in glory. that is supported by Zec 4:3, 14. Luke 9:30, 31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

IN order for them to speak they have to have stood by him just as Rev11:4 says that they stand by the Lord.
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
All joking aside if I run all the cross references of the powers of the two witness they agree to Moses and Elijah.

but what does make it clear that it is Moses an Elijah is the fact that only these two men ever stood with the Lord in glory. that is supported by Zec 4:3, 14. Luke 9:30, 31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

IN order for them to speak they have to have stood by him just as Rev11:4 says that they stand by the Lord.
Chette, just when I start to think you are being hard-headed about the identity of the two witnesses clearly being Moses and Elijah you come up with verses I've never noticed before (Zec 4:3, 14) that clinch it!

God bless you, brother.

Jennifer
 

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