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Old 11-15-2008, 08:57 PM
Traditional Anglican Traditional Anglican is offline
 
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Question How do to respond to a Roman Catholic on this

I was in a "little" debate with some Roman Catholics, I stated that their beliefs were a worship of Mary and the Saints. Correct me here my friends, BUT if I see people BOWING DOWN to a statue, lighting little red candles and speaking to it....you are pretty much in a state of "worship". They gave the usual RCC answer: "You ask living friends to Pray for you, why not Mary and the Saints since they are so much closer to God." I know some of you have heard that line. Here is the problem, EVEN if you could convince me it was not worship, Scripture FORBIDS communicating with the dead, it is Necromancy and an Abomination. My question is this, how do you get around their semantics to communicate there is a REAL problem??????
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:57 PM
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Kiwi Christian Kiwi Christian is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Traditional Anglican View Post
"You ask living friends to Pray for you, why not Mary and the Saints since they are so much closer to God."
It is very difficult to reason with people who hold man-made traditions as the final authority above God's word. Usually we would turn to the relevant verses of scripture and show them what God says to prove them wrong, but they won't accept that. So I guess you need to be tactful and defeat them by their own reasoning, somehow?

In cases like this, where you are basically debating against a brick wall, I prefer to shift the subject and focus on Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Stick with the gospel and salvation, because if you can't agree on that everything else is worthless.
  #3  
Old 11-15-2008, 11:49 PM
fundy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traditional Anglican View Post
I was in a "little" debate with some Roman Catholics, I stated that their beliefs were a worship of Mary and the Saints. Correct me here my friends, BUT if I see people BOWING DOWN to a statue, lighting little red candles and speaking to it....you are pretty much in a state of "worship". They gave the usual RCC answer: "You ask living friends to Pray for you, why not Mary and the Saints since they are so much closer to God." I know some of you have heard that line. Here is the problem, EVEN if you could convince me it was not worship, Scripture FORBIDS communicating with the dead, it is Necromancy and an Abomination. My question is this, how do you get around their semantics to communicate there is a REAL problem??????
Hi TA,

Catholics, while expressing a belief in "the Bible" being the word of God, do not look upon it as the final authority. If you show them scripture that contradicts what the church teaches, they ignore scripture and go with church doctrine.

Sill, "the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two ed-ged sword."..Heb 4:12

With this in mind, it is still best to just use scripture to correct them, and dont try to reason with them at an "intellectual" level....that is to say, use Gods words, not your own.

Show them this scripture and then ask them how many mediators between man and God the scripture tells us there are?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

With the answer being "one" then ask them why they persist in praying to Mary and ignoring the word of God, especially in light of the following scripture?

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The fact is that they will be judged by the very words of scripture (Gods words) that they reject.

Show them the truth and let God give the increase.

Fundy
  #4  
Old 11-17-2008, 05:21 AM
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PB1789 PB1789 is offline
 
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Default Sola Scriptura !

Good answers from both Kiwi and Fundy {Hello Southern Cross folks, from a Big Dipper folk }

Traditional Anglican:--- What you said is exactly what I think about the R.C. type folks... And I have been inside several of the Roman Catholic "Mission Churches" in California for tours and to get a bit of "history" when I used to live there. There is a smaller one (whose name is shared by a State Prison-btw) in the San Joaquin Valley that has a huge statue of a woman in a dress at the front of the sanctuary area...and she isn't even holding a baby...like they normally depict Mary in the paintings and candle holders/ statuettes. That figure was at least 5 1/2 feet tall with a big dress and standing about 4 or 5 feet above the floor.

I understand them having a crucifix on a necklace or on a wall ( I prefer a plain cross) so they can remember Christ Jesus suffering on Calvary... BUT--when I see people praying to a statue of a woman who died in the 1st Century A.D. --- I say: No Thank you very much!

The odd thing about talking with R.C.'s (if they will actually try to defend their practices) is that when you read them a Bible verse or encourage them to read from their own Bible-(which several R.C.'s don't even own!)- to challenge what they are doing, they will tell you that The Roman Catholic Church brought forth the Bible,,,therefore if what they are reading in God's Word conflicts with the thinkings/doings of Rome...they will usually stick with the teachings/traditions of the Vatican.

But, stick with it--- Plant the seeds... maybe, someday ... the Word will take hold and grow some roots. Hey! -- why not invite them to visit your Church sometime..? The R.E.C. is a formal/conservative/liturgical/ style setting and they might feel less "intimidated" than if they were to visit somewhere else. { It's the "Honey versus Vinegar" approach -}
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Old 11-17-2008, 07:07 AM
kittn1 kittn1 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB1789 View Post

I understand them having a crucifix on a necklace or on a wall ( I prefer a plain cross) so they can remember Christ Jesus suffering on Calvary...
When I see a crucifix I think they're stuck half-way through the story. The cross is empty! So is the tomb!

Up from the grave He arose,
With a mighty triumph o’er His foes,
He arose a Victor from the dark domain,
And He lives forever, with His saints to reign.
He arose! He arose!
Hallelujah! Christ arose!
  #6  
Old 11-17-2008, 09:14 AM
Traditional Anglican Traditional Anglican is offline
 
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A thing that really cracks me up (or would, were it not sad) is this, I have heard SO many RCs say they ask Mary to pray for them and they do NOT direct prayers to her, then 5 minutes later, they slip up and talk about prayers to the Holy Queen Of Heaven!!!!
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Old 11-18-2008, 01:39 AM
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stephanos stephanos is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traditional Anglican View Post
A thing that really cracks me up (or would, were it not sad) is this, I have heard SO many RCs say they ask Mary to pray for them and they do NOT direct prayers to her, then 5 minutes later, they slip up and talk about prayers to the Holy Queen Of Heaven!!!!
Not only that but the Vatican is being pressured to make Mary the coredemtrix with Christ! These pagans need Jesus. I always keep that in mind when I'm talking with them. They need to get saved, and then you can discuss doctrine with them.

Peace and Love,
Stephen
  #8  
Old 11-17-2008, 08:10 PM
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Kiwi Christian Kiwi Christian is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittn1 View Post
When I see a crucifix I think they're stuck half-way through the story. The cross is empty! So is the tomb!

Up from the grave He arose,
With a mighty triumph o’er His foes,
He arose a Victor from the dark domain,
And He lives forever, with His saints to reign.
He arose! He arose!
Hallelujah! Christ arose!
PRAISE GOD for that great hymn!!!
  #9  
Old 11-18-2008, 12:20 AM
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Take them to the Dhouay Rheims Bible

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:


They will come back with the "We don't adore them or worship them, we ask them to pray for us. You ask your friends to pray for you, they are there before God, we ask them."

This response is expected. You honestly won't get anywhere arguing about idol worship with a Catholic. They need Christ, so you need to get there.

If you can get them to concede that Peter, or Paul, or Mary act as a mediator between their prayers and God, you are going well

Turn to 1 Tim 2:5 in the DRB

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Then turn to Acts 4:10 DRB

Act 4:10 Be it known to you all and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him, this man standeth here before you, whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.


The Catholics reject terms like "saved" etc, because they see them as protestant terms. But if they can see them in their own Bible, and that they need Jesus Christ, and not Mary, they might listen.

Turn them to Christ's rejection of Marian worship

Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee and the paps that gave thee suck.
Luk 11:28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it.


Turn them to Christ's brethren, to dispel Mary's perpetual virginity

Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.


Turn them to the account given in Luke,

Mat 1:25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.

Then go back to 1 Tim 2:5 and Acts 4:10

Press them to accept the word of God over traditions of men

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy and vain deceit: according to the tradition of men according to the elements of the world and not according to Christ.


I'm KJB only - but it might help to reach a Catholic using the scriptures that his church has authorised. The DRB is very close to the KJB.. identical in many verses. Once they get saved, it will be easier to show them truth.
  #10  
Old 11-18-2008, 05:51 AM
fundy
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[QUOTE=PB1789;11892]Good answers from both Kiwi and Fundy {Hello Southern Cross folks, from a Big Dipper folk }

Hi there PB1789, Alaska is about as far away from Australia as you can get, I bet it gets cold up there. I noticed on your state flag that the big dipper is represented, Like the Sothern Cross is on ours.( and the Kiwi's) What does the Larger 5 pointed star in the top right field represent?

I noticed on your profile that you like guns and were in the military, I run a gunstore down here in OZ and spent 6 years in the Army ( a long time ago).

Our pastor is an American who came here as a missionary and stayed to shepherd our church. A truly great Bible teaching preacher who just loves to go hunting. (mens souls as well as wild animals)

Next time your in the neighbourhood, call in and we can go out and burn up some ammo.

Fundy
 

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