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Old 11-10-2008, 09:50 PM
toiwnz toiwnz is offline
 
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Ok guys, I'm stuck in between doctrines and I'm trying to find my place. Now I was raised on the doctrine that once a christian dies that he or she goes to Heaven and vice versa if they are unsaved. Now all of that was very comforting when my daddy and grandaddy died. But I never questioned it. I just assumed it was right. Well after looking at the Bible, I found myself stuck. There are some questions that I looking for the answers to. I know much of the doctrine of the Adventist is wrong but I'm stuck between their doctrine of what happens at death and what I've been raised on. Let me just get to it. Here are some questions I'm trying to get answered

-If a person goes to Heaven when they die do they come back to their body at the ressurection just to go back to Heaven

-Why did Martha tell Jesus she knew her brother would rise at the last day?

-Why did Jesus talk about raising people up at the last day at leas four times in John 6

-Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him this day in paradise. Jesus did go to paradise that day, He went in the tomb. Did Jesus mean I'm telling you today, that you'll be in paradise with me? Is this a case of mis puntuation (spelling)?

-King Solomon said the Dead know nothing not any thing Ecc 9:5, King David say the dead don't praise the Lord Ps 115:17. Explain these

-Aren't all the dead waiting for judgment Dan 12:2?


These are just some of the questions I have. No, I'm not trying bring confusion or start anything or bring division in this forum as I've seen some do. I honestly have these questions and looking for true sound biblical answers. I know the parable of the rich man and lazarus. I'm just looking for some answers. Thanks for you alls help.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:02 AM
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[/QUOTE]

Hi Toiwnz (are you from NZ? I am too),

I've been through some struggles lately, but I will try to answer these questions for you by the Grace of God, and scriptures.

Quote:
I just assumed it was right.
It is right. To sum up what I am about to write, the saved man goes to heaven when he dies, and the lost goes to hell. There is no soul sleep.

Quote:
-If a person goes to Heaven when they die do they come back to their body at the ressurection just to go back to Heaven
When a person dies, their spirit goes to heaven, but their body remains on earth:

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
...
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


While we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord. This flesh cannot be in God's presence. When we die, our spirit goes to God in heaven, if it has been regenerated and cleansed from sin (the born again spirit cannot sin). The body goes to the ground. It's just a shell.

At the rapture, something amazing happens.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Those alive on earth will have their physical bodies changed as they ascend into glory with Jesus Christ. Jesus returns with those who were dead in Him and their bodies are raised incorruptible, and rejoined to their spirits.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (they are already in Christ - their bodies rise).

They then ascend into heaven with God for seven years, to participate in the Judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor 3), and the Marriage supper of the Lamb. They then return to earth with Christ, where they combat against the enemies of Jesus Christ (Joel 3).

Quote:

-Why did Martha tell Jesus she knew her brother would rise at the last day?
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

I assume you mean that verse. At this time, the rapture was not revealed to the Jews. The church age was a mystery. They had little knowledge of grace, and salvation by grace. She is talking about another judgment, spoken of in Daniel 12

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


I don't know what this judgment is. It sounds like the Great White Throne, but since it is at the end of the tribulation, it may be the judgment of nations (Matt 5), which is specifice to Israel.

Also, she could be referring to what Jesus had just been preaching about in John 6, and since Martha believed Jesus, then yes, she believed Lazarus would be raised the last day, but Martha is not infallible remember, and her trus in Jesus does not mean she understood the judgments and the rapture etc.

Quote:
-Why did Jesus talk about raising people up at the last day at leas four times in John 6
Because he will. The last day does not mean the last day of time. In this case, it is the last day of the time of the gentiles. The rapture. I may be wrong on this one, but once again, the principle applies. It is the body being raised, not the spirit. The spirit is always alive (either in hell, or in heaven).

Quote:
-Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him this day in paradise. Jesus did go to paradise that day, He went in the tomb. Did Jesus mean I'm telling you today, that you'll be in paradise with me? Is this a case of mis puntuation (spelling)?
Okay, this is a big one to understand, and everything else kind of falls in place when this one is understood.

I'll give you a timeline of events

1. Heaven is where God is. No sin can enter Heaven. When OT saints die, they can't go to heaven, because they are not redeemed. Their sins are only remitted, not forgotten or cleansed. Instead, they go to

2. Paradise/Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16). This is in the centre of the earth. It is near hell. Hell is visible from Paradise. There is a great gulf fixed between them. When OT sinners died without trusting God, without the sacrifices, they went to Hell. When OT saints died trusting God, haviing paid the law through sacrifices of faith, they went to Paradise.

3. When Jesus died, his death was not only for all future sins, but for all sins past. Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; . So the OT sins that were only remitted by the blood of bulls and goats were now paid for by the propitiation of Jesus Christ.

4. The day Jesus died, he went to Paradise. Why? To take those OT saints to heaven, now that there sins were paid for.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


5. Jesus goes to Hell/Paradise (descends to lower parts of earth) - preaches to the saints in captivity in Paradise, and either takes them to Heaven, or takes paradise to Heaven with Him and all the saints in it, washing them in His blood.

6. Rises from the dead victorious over sin and death

The path of the thief on the cross is the same as Christ. He descends into paradise with Christ (if he died first, no doubt there would be much excitement as he told them the messiah was coming very soon, like in the next few minutes), and then he went to Heaven with Christ, since the atonement was made.

Quote:
-King Solomon said the Dead know nothing not any thing Ecc 9:5, King David say the dead don't praise the Lord Ps 115:17. Explain these
King Solomon was writing in worldly wisdom in Ecclesiastes. He also says the earth doesn't move, amongst other things which are contradicted elsewhere in the Bible.

You'll find it explained if you read the next verse

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


From a worldly view, the dead are not remembered, they have perished, their goods are gone, and they don't care what happens to their worldly things. If this were to be taken literally, one could just as easily say "there is no life after death". Must be read in the context of ecclesiastes.

Verse 7 even says to get drunk, and be merry, because God accepts thy works. If we apply that to salvation, then we should all be exclusive brethren and load up on the booze.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 115:18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.


Must READ in context - in this case, David is talking about the dead who hate God. He makes a division - but WE WILL .. FOREVERMORE (even in death).


Quote:

-Aren't all the dead waiting for judgment Dan 12:2?
Like I said before, this is referring to a Judgment specific to Israel. Notice it says many of them. In this case, I do not believe that many refers to all, as it does in some verses in the Bible. Many refers to Israel, who will be judged prior to the Millennial Kingdom.

God bless, hope it helps.

In Christ,
Luke
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:14 PM
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Right on Luke, great post!
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Old 11-11-2008, 08:51 PM
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Good post, Luke.

I read something recently, that when Jesus took the OT saints from Paradise to Heaven, he took Paradise as well. Basis?


"Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it." (Isaiah 5:14)

It's an interesting thought...
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:31 PM
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I agree, although that verse is pre-calvary. I think a post calvary verse to support that is

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Paul was caught UP into paradise (not down).
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:02 PM
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Kiwi Christian Kiwi Christian is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Here Am I View Post
Good post, Luke.

I read something recently, that when Jesus took the OT saints from Paradise to Heaven, he took Paradise as well. Basis?

"Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it." (Isaiah 5:14)

It's an interesting thought...
Interesting thought, but a weak proof text, especially when Matt 27:52 says "many bodies of the saints which slept arose". So many of the OT saints arose after Christ's resurrection but not ALL. It could be that some of them are still in paradise, for some reason. I think Doc mentions this in his Revelation commentary, that Ab's bosom/paradise (in the heart of the earth) could still contain inhabitants and may be used again in future dispensations?

Luke, good effort with your answers to the OP here!
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Old 11-12-2008, 10:11 PM
toiwnz toiwnz is offline
 
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What scriptures show that dead people are in the middle of the earth?
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Old 11-12-2008, 10:41 PM
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Well they certainly wouldn't be alive, now would they?
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by toiwnz View Post
What scriptures show that dead people are in the middle of the earth?
The main verses we get this teaching from concern the soul of our Lord Jesus Christ descending into the underworld after His death on the cross, but I do believe the saints from the Old Testament knew about this in their day.

Comparing the scriptures that follow, we learn that Jonah went to hell and that hell is situated in the middle (heart) of the earth:

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


This next verse speaks of Christ first descending into the lower parts of the earth and then ascending and leading "captivity captive":

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

It is generally believed the "captives" that Christ lead up were the souls of those Old Testament saints who died and went down into the underworld to a place of rest so named Abraham's bosom (again, situated in the middle of the earth in proximity to hell, but both places separated by a great gulf or space), and there waited for Christ to die and come and take them out. This we learn from several of the gospel accounts:

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


There are also multiple scriptures throughout the Bible which speak of damned souls (people) going to hell, which, as I have just shown, is situated in the middle of the earth. See Psalms 9:17; Psalms 55:15; Proverbs 23:14; Isaiah 5:14; Ezekiel 32:26-27; Matthew 11:20-24; Revelation 20:13.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Last edited by Kiwi Christian; 11-13-2008 at 12:32 AM.
 

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