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  #31  
Old 09-21-2008, 12:12 AM
herami
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Hey Atlas,

I appreciate your approach and attitude in discussion of controversies such as this.

In presenting some of the stronger Biblical support, I'd like to start with a question, if I may, Atlas.

What method did God use to create the world?
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  #32  
Old 09-21-2008, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by herami View Post
What method did God use to create the world?
He used a 25ft Stanley FatMax tape measure; I know for certain...

*sigh* 2 Timothy 2:23

Stephen
  #33  
Old 09-21-2008, 03:52 AM
Scott Simons
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Originally Posted by atlas View Post
Herami,


I have read most if not all of the pro gap side. Others may not have read the pro gap side of the issue. So I think you need to post it my friend. It will be good for other folks to see both sides of the gap issue. I know the case is made very well for the 6-24 hour day creation. I also know that many good folks are gappers. I just happen not to be one of them. I think you have to over look all of the Bible verses I have posted a gapper.

If you will can you also tell me how Lucifer's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation? That would be nice. Most tend to dodge this question for some reason.


Atlas
Good job Atlas, I like Peter Ruckman, but on this one he is totally wrong, and that is about the only major thing I can think of, for him. The gap position in just plain and simply against what the bible says, you have to twist logic and understanding english into a contorted confuted thought.
Gap is wrong and if you want to believe it go ahead but you better not try to teach in the church I go to.
  #34  
Old 09-21-2008, 05:56 AM
herami
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Originally Posted by stephanos View Post
He used a 25ft Stanley FatMax tape measure; I know for certain...
Well, not quite.

God created by His word that went forth from His mouth!

We see the words "and God said..." over and over in the creation account.

Compare that fact with this -

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11


God said His word does not return VOID.

Look at Genesis 1:2 -

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

If God created the world by His word, and God's word doesn't return VOID, then something happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen. 1:2.

Note the elements present in this Genesis 1:2-
- earth without form and void.
- darkness

These are not elements of CREATION.
They are elements of DESTRUCTION.

By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we might find out what's going on in Genesis 1:2.

"Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled : suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment." Jer 4:20

Jeremiah is giving a prophecy of future DESTRUCTION.
Take a look at how he describes it -

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void ; and the heavens, and they had no light." Jer. 4:23

Jeremiah's description of the FUTURE fits Moses' description of the PAST in Gen. 1:2 perfectly.
-earth without form and void
- darkness

What is darkness an indication of in your Bible?
Remember 1 John 1:5?

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Scripture seems to strongly indicate that something happened between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2.

Like I said, I am not fully convinced of the gap theory, but I dare not brush it away as nonsense either.


I will post more when I have more time.
  #35  
Old 09-21-2008, 07:18 AM
Steve Schwenke
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Originally Posted by atlas View Post
Steve,





I have never heard a reasonable, logical explanation of how or why Satan's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation. Would you care to give us one?



Atlas
Ok then, when did he fall? How does verse 2 fit into the creation? So God's original creation (v. 2) was void? Where did those waters come from? Verse 3 gives us the first day, but verse 2 is not part of verse 3, so far as I can tell.
  #36  
Old 09-21-2008, 07:31 AM
Steve Schwenke
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...
Please understand that I do understand why people believe the gap theory. However, I also understand the history of how the gap theory came into being, and for that reason I cannot support it. Also, I do believe that it is solely because of 'accomodation' (of both secular and non-secular theories) that people support the gap theory. ...
So that's where I stand.

Peace and Love,
Stephen
David Walker has demonstrated in his book on Dispensationalism that many different believers have accepted a gap long before Darwin came along. I ask you, what exactly am I accomodating? I have repeatedly stated that I do not accept evolution - in any form. The "anti-gap" theologians have used this tactic to put mud on those of us who believe it - the old "guilt by association" trick. This does not make it true.

I believe that v. 3-31 are literal 24 hour days - six of them. On the 7th 24 hour day, the Lord rested.
So your verses using the phrase "in the beginning" simply mean "in the beginning" of this current system.
Your verses about Adam and Eve are irrelevent to this discussion - they were created on the sixth day, which is not "at the beginning" - six days into a project is not "at the beginning." Thus the phrase is a reference to the beginning of the population. Also, there is no record that Eve was created on the same day as Adam - is it not possible that she was created after the original (re)creation week? We don't know - the Scripture is not clear on this. All we know is that she was created AFTER Adam.
So, two of the references you used to prove "in the beginning" are really proving "in the beginning of the human race", not "in the very beginning of the creation week (i.e. the first day.) Since we don't know exactly when Eve was created, it would be hard to apply those verses to Genesis 1:1.

In Christ,
  #37  
Old 09-21-2008, 07:37 AM
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Steve,

Check out the Thread

Why isn't the Second day of Creation said to be good?
  #38  
Old 09-21-2008, 11:32 AM
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Steve,

As always I ask the question.

Quote:
I have never heard a reasonable, logical explanation of how or why Satan's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation.
You come back with questions about the fall, as everyone else dose.

Quote:
Ok then, when did he fall?
Can you show me one place in creation where the name of Satan is even mentioned? Satan had absolutely nothing to do with creation whatsoever.

Can you also tell me what this verse is saying?

Quote:
Gen. 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,...
I can tell you what it is saying. Their was a 6 day creation. The heaven and earth and everything that is in them was made in those 6 days.

Was Satan ever in the heaven or the earth? If so he was made in one of those six days. As was everything else that has ever been in heaven or the earth.

How do you deal with this simple plain verse that deals with a 6 day of creation and what was created? This is the real question here. Did not God give the 10 commandments to Moses with his spoken Word, IE: The very mouth of God? The verse I am quoting came from the very mouth of God himself.


Quote:
Gen. 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,...


Atlas

Last edited by atlas; 09-21-2008 at 12:01 PM.
  #39  
Old 09-21-2008, 12:10 PM
herami
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Hi Atlas!

The wording in Exodus 20:11 is very important in the King James Bible.
(The beauty is in the details!)

Our King James Bible is AMAZING in its accuracy and its ABSOLUTELY CORRECT use of words.

Going back to Genesis 1:1 we find something astounding.
Check it out -

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1

In Genesis 1:1, God says that he created the heaven and the earth.

God does not use the word "created" again until we get to the WHALES in Genesis 1:21. [The whale must have been created for some special purpose, eh? (Jonah?!) ]


Instead, we see the word "made" used -

"...God made the firmament..."
"...God made two great lights..."
"...he made the stars also..."


To MAKE something is to form something out of already existing matter.
To CREATE something is to cause something into being out of nothing.



Look at what we find when we get to man -

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:26,27

We find that God both MADE man (God formed man out of the dust of the earth) and CREATED man (God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.)

Now look at the incredibly accurate wording of Exodus 20:11 in our King James Bible -

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20:11

Exodus 20:11 does NOT match Genesis 1:1.
It matches Genesis 1:3-31
  #40  
Old 09-21-2008, 12:59 PM
Steve Schwenke
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Thank you Herami for your response.

Atlas, I believe that when God re-created everything, that it was in done in 6 literal days. I just don't believe that v. 3 is a continuation of v. 1-2. So the verses you quoted in 1:20 are accurate - the things described from v. 3 and following were created in 6 days.

v. 2 simply does not fit with v. 1 and then vs 3ff. As was pointed out earlier, Darkness and Void seem to indicate a cataclysmic destruction of something that was there. Then vs 3 and following show the recreation, which took place in 6 literal 24 hour days.

In Christ,
 

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