Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #81  
Old 05-05-2008, 02:18 PM
jerry
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I have read Frank Logsdon's testimony. Another example would be Spurgeon. He used the King James Bible for most of his public ministry. There were some references to the English Revised Version (Westcott and Hort's Bible) - but within a few years he rejected it and referred to it as "the blunder Bible."

As far as Torrey goes, he got involved in higher criticism when he spent some time in Germany. Later, he saw its follies and stood against it - however, he did not reject the Bible that was a result of the work of higher critics.
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  #82  
Old 05-05-2008, 07:26 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Brother Tim
I think that it is important to note that we cannot place the exact same terminology or even standards of behavior or belief on those of past generations as we do contemporaries.
This is easy to see in the Bible version discussion. There was a great fascination and interest in the Revision prospect, the Authorized Version was not appreciated in the scholastic circles, even the textual giant Dean Burgon fell down on this on occasion. As time went on, as Revision Revised demonstrated the textual shenanigans, as others began to see the whole picture clearer, precept upon precept, line upon line, it has become far easier to see the truth of the purity and perfection of the King James Bible.

An evangelist in the late 19th and early 20th century may be less accountable for a loose view of the identity of the pure Bible. Men who wrote beautiful evangelical books (e.g. David Baron and Adolph Saphir, even before the revision disaster) may have looked through a glass darkly at the identity of the pure and perfect Bible.

Shalom,
Steven
  #83  
Old 05-05-2008, 07:31 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry
Spurgeon. ... English Revised Version ... within a few years he rejected it and referred to it as "the blunder Bible."
Hi Jerry,

Without an identifiable source I would hesitate to use this quote. Some on the net have pointed out the lack of source and the one place I found that has a quote, the quote is strange, including a reference to the: "series of eccentric Scriptures" and .. no source.

Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 05-05-2008 at 07:33 PM.
  #84  
Old 05-05-2008, 08:19 PM
jerry
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I am pretty sure I read that in Spurgeon's own writings, but I can't remember from what sermon or article. I have all of his sermons on CD, plus various of his books - but it is not easy to search. I tried searching through his sermons from the 1880's and the last volume of his Sword and Trowel (from 1883 and 1884), and could not locate it right now.
  #85  
Old 05-05-2008, 08:44 PM
Connie
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I had the same question how to find the original source of those references to Spurgeon and Torrey and others' comments on the Bible. I did find a couple of references online to Spurgeon's calling the W-H Bible "the blunder Bible" but no original source for either:

David Cloud refers to it as Spurgeon’s remark but gives no reference:

Quote:
Why not the Reviser’s English? Are you serious? Because it was based on the corrupt Westcott-Hort text and, even apart from its textual corruption, it was what C.H. Spurgeon and many godly men of that day called “the blunder Bible” because of its ponderous English. In brief, it was a poor translation of the wrong Greek text.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/correspondencewitha.htm

And here’s another reference, giving more of the quotation but again no source:

Quote:
Spurgeon Called the English Revised Version (1885) "the Blunder Bible"

In noticing the Revised Old Testament, Mr. Spurgeon wrote; "We did not need a blunder Bible to complete the series of eccentric Scriptures. However, good has come out of evil; the old Authorized Version sits secure upon its throne. There is none like it; nor is there likely to be."

http://prophets-see-all.tripod.com/46643.htm
  #86  
Old 05-05-2008, 09:12 PM
jerry
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Does anyone know a way to search through a disk/folder full of PDF's for a specific phrase, without having to open up each individual one? If so, I can search through my CDROM with Spurgeon's sermons and books quickly. Otherwise it would take me quite a while to do so.
  #87  
Old 05-05-2008, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
This is easy to see in the Bible version discussion. There was a great fascination and interest in the Revision prospect, the Authorized Version was not appreciated in the scholastic circles, even the textual giant Dean Burgon fell down on this on occasion. As time went on, as Revision Revised demonstrated the textual shenanigans, as others began to see the whole picture clearer, precept upon precept, line upon line, it has become far easier to see the truth of the purity and perfection of the King James Bible.

An evangelist in the late 19th and early 20th century may be less accountable for a loose view of the identity of the pure Bible. Men who wrote beautiful evangelical books (e.g. David Baron and Adolph Saphir, even before the revision disaster) may have looked through a glass darkly at the identity of the pure and perfect Bible.

Shalom,
Steven
Right on - Again - brother.

I believe that God's people are responsible to stand up for the "light" that is given them, and that they must defend against attacks aimed against specific "doctrines" from the scriptures. Over the centuries, church history has demonstrated that at different times specific "doctrines" have come under attack and certain saints of God have arisen and have met the "challenge" of their time and contended for the faith - i.e. the virgin birth; the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ; and the Godhead ("Trinity" - I don't use the word myself) - All "vital "doctrines" from the scriptures - and all ably defended by God's saints in the distant past.

In the last 500 years or so for instance: the 12th. to 15th. century "issue" of "the just shall live by faith" {declared by Martin Luther, Zwingli, etc.} as opposed to works (Roman Catholic doctrine); from the 16th. through the 19th. century, the "issue" of "which Greek text" - The "Textus Receptus" as against the "Eclectic Text" i.e. Westcott & Hort-Nestles-United Bible Society, etc., etc. - {ably defended by Burgon, Miller, Scrivener, Hoskier, etc.}; and the latest "issue" from the 19 to the 21st. century i.e. "Which Bible"
(especially in English) The King James Bible (A.V.) as against the NIV, NASV, NJKV, ETC., ETC., ETC., and who knows how many at this time? {ably defended by Hills, Ray, Fuller, Ruckman, etc., etc.}

I believe that, just like the "issues" of the "virgin birth", the "Deity of Christ", and the "Godhead" have been settled by God's people; the issue of "which text" has been "settled" {by those who went before us} and those who spend a whole lot of time on the issue are going over "plowed ground". For those unfamiliar with the issue, by all means check out the "which text" issue, but the battle now is over "Which Bible" in English Is God's Holy word - perfect and without error - that is: "the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
2 Timothy 3:15

After spending 40 years on the "issue" of "Which Bible" (20 years-intensive & exhaustive, and the last 20 years keeping abreast); I have have found that after the study all of the various subjects entailed in this issue, the single most effective study is the verse by verse comparison between the King James Bible and whatever "bible" someone "thinks" or "believes" is equivalent or even "superior" to it.

With the exception of getting saved, there is nothing in the world to compare with the reaction of some believers, who, after even a cursory comparison between the Holy Bible and their "version" exclaim that: "I can't believe the difference"; or "why didn't I see this before?"; or "How could 'they' do this"?; or "How did 'they' get away with this for so long?"


  #88  
Old 05-06-2008, 03:38 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry
Does anyone know a way to search through a disk/folder full of PDF's for a specific phrase, without having to open up each individual one? If so, I can search through my CDROM with Spurgeon's sermons and books quickly. Otherwise it would take me quite a while to do so.
Hi Jerry,

Any good file manager should have that function, as well as dedicated search utilities. I use Total Commander, and it does this on the search function (you put in "*.pdf" in search for, "c:\ in search directory" and "blunder Bible" or however you want to search in Find Text. Dedicated search utilities might be a little more powerful, allowing more than one string at a time, Boolean searches, special characters and such. Locate32 and ScanFS and ExtraSearch Free and InfoRapid Search and ReplaceEm and Texrep and Serp and A.F.9 are likely all freewares. Here is a picture of one of them. http://www.cwwsoft.com/extrasearch-free.html Also you can use the desktop search programs, however for this I recommend one of the freewares.

Shalom,
Steven
  #89  
Old 05-06-2008, 08:41 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Connie
the original source of those references to Spurgeon ... Spurgeon's calling the W-H Bible "the blunder Bible" ... David Cloud refers to it as Spurgeon’s remark but gives no reference .. another reference, giving more of the quotation but again no source:
Hi Connie,

And apparently David Cloud was questioned on this a while back and did not give a Spurgeon quote source. There is indication the source goes back to T. Harwood Pattison, and that would likely be "The History of the English Bible" Baptist Tract and Book Society, 1894. $26 on ibiblio, available at libraries per Worldcat. It is unclear whether the quote is there.

I don't know the Charles Spurgeon history and timeline and writings well enough to see if he may have changed positions substantively after around 1885 (he lived 1934-1892). There are quotes where he is pro-revision.

Herb Evans seems to have a good sources some very nice quote from Charles Spurgeon, about the infallibility of the Bible.

http://www.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?p=36667
" we are fully assured that our old English version of the Scriptures is sufficient for plain men for all purposes of life, salvation, and goodness."
—Free Presbyterian Magazine, quoted in The Baptist Examiner - April 15, 1978, p. 1


While this is far stronger than the liberals it has some tempered usage, and is not directly addressing the issue of textual and translational differences, where there are other quotes from Spurgeon where he is in error. Did his position move ? The Revised Version was 1881, Revision Revised by Dean Burgon which exposed all the revision blunders was published in 1883, so it is possible. To really determine more quotes with dates would be helpful.

Shalom
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 05-06-2008 at 08:50 AM.
  #90  
Old 05-06-2008, 08:46 AM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry View Post
Does anyone know a way to search through a disk/folder full of PDF's for a specific phrase, without having to open up each individual one? If so, I can search through my CDROM with Spurgeon's sermons and books quickly. Otherwise it would take me quite a while to do so.

Unfortunately you'd probably have to use some kind of document imaging system to handle that, which would be expensive. (Or you could use Steve's suggestion and search the file data itself, though I don't know how well that works for compressed PDFs.) You've given me an idea. SwordSearcher could be extended to index and search PDF files... Something else for the to-do list.
 

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