Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-08-2009, 08:29 AM
premio53 premio53 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 21
Default Old Testament Salvation by faith + works please explain

Does it contradict the apostle Paul? If not why not? Thanks.
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #2  
Old 05-08-2009, 03:58 PM
Luke's Avatar
Luke Luke is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 594
Default

No it does not.

Paul was not alive during most of the OT, and while he was raised on it, he then rejected it for the gospel of Grace, acknowledging that the law was fulfilled by Christ.
  #3  
Old 05-08-2009, 06:08 PM
tonybones2112's Avatar
tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 754
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by premio53 View Post
Does it contradict the apostle Paul? If not why not? Thanks.
Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Both Paul and Jesus Christ made it clear many were following the Law in order to fulfil ordinances of the Law yet were doing it without faith. Paul then states that through the fall of Israel would come the exaltation of the Gentiles something that was NOT prophesied at anytime before:

Rom. 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you–ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3: 9 is also a stumbling block for hyperCalvinism, as I see much striving and wresting iof Scripture to make "all men" ONLY "the elect".

I stand with brother Luke: Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and no one else knew the Law as he did, thus unto him was committed the gospel of the grace of God that we Gentiles would be partakers of the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary and His resurrection and salvation was open to everybody now apart from the works of the Law, the Law was a schoolmaster to bring the Jews to Christ and a pretty straight and direct statement that apart from Christ, there was no avenue of salvation open to us Gentiles and Jews save for Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. In the OT Gentiles received favor only through the rise and their blessing of Israel, the program hid in God NOW is that through their fall we ALL hve salvation, and that totally apart from the works of the Law.

Grace and peace my friend

Tony
  #4  
Old 05-25-2009, 01:43 AM
Buck's Avatar
Buck Buck is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Twin Lake, Michigan
Posts: 39
Default Old Testament Salvation by faith + works

Let me know if I'm wrong.
Faith + works is NT Christs death was the beinging of the New Testament.
Old Testament was moses law.
  #5  
Old 05-25-2009, 03:01 PM
Luke's Avatar
Luke Luke is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 594
Default

There is NO Faith + Works salvation in this dispensation from God.
  #6  
Old 05-25-2009, 03:06 PM
tandy1650
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
There is NO Faith + Works salvation in this dispensation from God.
The same is true in the Old Testament brother!

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We don't need a man who rejects the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ to "interpret" it for us. Just believe it.
  #7  
Old 05-25-2009, 04:50 PM
Luke's Avatar
Luke Luke is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 594
Default

That verse refers to about 10 chapters in Genesis. After Abraham, there was Moses and the Law, which takes about about 38 books of the Bible.

But to sum up again

Noone in the OT was made righteous by the law. They had their sins COVERED by the blood of animals, not taken away. If they broke the law of God, they provided the sacrifice with the right heart and all was good. The sacrifices were provided for in the law. If they died having their sins covered, they went to paradise.

Now, there are exceptions. David's sin was not provided for in the law. God showed great mercy. Daniel and the Jews in captivity could not sacrifice, but God accepted the broken spirit over sin.

Yet when they could, Israelites were expected to keep the law. They were under the law. They lived by the law.

When they died, they did not go to heaven, but to the grave, and to abrahams bosom, where they awaited their messiah and the blood atonement of Isaiah 53.

So OT saints are saved by the blood as we are, but not the same way on EARTH. They had Law. We have Grace and the Law is fulfilled in Christ already.
  #8  
Old 05-25-2009, 08:35 PM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

In the many years of studying the Bible I found that Faith, Works and Grace all play an intricate part in salvation in the different dispensations. but what is different is the way each of these are applied in every dispensation. I am not claiming ex cathedra I could be wrong on some points. it is just an observation.

Garden- Already had Gods grace Adam was to Obey (work) and live. No faith for he saw and knew God

pre-law- God gives grace to certain men resulting in their faith and works - Enoch, Noah Abraham. you will notice Grace was given by God because of the Person whom God chose to deal with. God worked individuals Enoch walked with God, Noah found grace, Abrams belief reckoned to him for righteousness.

under law- Do the works of the Law(obedience) by Faith in the word of God it resulted in God grace for the Israel. if they didn't obey in faith they were to be expelled from the land by God - no grace (even then he worked with individuals) but as a nation they were rejected because they rejected God.

Church Age- Grace by faith free to all who believe. All works are a result of God's grace not to get God's grace.

Great tribulation- Faith and Works get Gods grace- same as under the law only the death burial and resurrection are added to the message of salvation.

Millennial Kingdom- Works done in faith in the word of God gets God grace. faith is not in God or Christ but in his word only. The works of Zachariah 14.

Eternal Kingdom- already have Gods grace obey and enter and live. Rev 22 says who so ever keeps the commandments will have the right to enter the City and partake of the tree of life. this is just like the garden - no faith they see God

Last edited by chette777; 05-25-2009 at 08:46 PM.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:19 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com