Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

View Poll Results: Is water baptism Biblically correct for believers today?
Yes 29 85.29%
Yes
29 85.29%
No 5 14.71%
No
5 14.71%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #21  
Old 05-01-2009, 04:09 AM
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Default Baptism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post

Please, anyone, comment along with your vote.
Yes.

Because the Bible tells me so. Matthew 28:19 and Acts 8:35-39.

{ IIRC, the Quakers (Society of Friends) and maybe (?) The Salvation Army are/were the folks that don't hold to water baptism anymore...
odd, because there is not one verse in the New Testament that says to stop baptizing believers.}
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  #22  
Old 05-01-2009, 04:29 AM
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Not to be nit picky BUT,

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Matthew 28 was spoken to the (ye) 12 apostles and Jewish disciples.

there is not one verse where Paul has commanded us to Baptize nor not to. By example he did, but he did not make that the priority in his ministry and he literally can count the number of times he has done so.

Paul would be in violation to the commandment of Matthew 28 because he did not teach obedience to Jewish law or the Kingdom Gospel that Jesus taught his disciples to teach. and so would many of us as we do not teach those either.

here is an example of what Jesus commanded the disciples:
Matt 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. a different gospel than Paul's
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.


Do you also doing these? If not you are in violation to Matt 28:19, 20

Act 8 doesn't command Baptism or tell Christians or anyone to Baptize. It is an example of an apostle being obedient to Christ command of Matt 28. and remember the Ethiopian Eunuch was a Proselytize to Judaism.

Last edited by chette777; 05-01-2009 at 04:43 AM.
  #23  
Old 05-01-2009, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
It is an example of an apostle being obedient to Christ command of Matt 28.
Philip was not an apostle. This was Philip the "deacon".

The instructions to the disciples in Matthew 10:7 forward were specific to that one mission trip, not to be used as a standard operating procedure for all mission work.

First, Paul did baptize. Second he understood that not to be his primary mission. Third, Romans 6, written by Paul, explains the message of baptism. (to whom?)
  #24  
Old 05-01-2009, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
Philip was not an apostle. This was Philip the "deacon".

The instructions to the disciples in Matthew 10:7 forward were specific to that one mission trip, not to be used as a standard operating procedure for all mission work.

First, Paul did baptize. Second he understood that not to be his primary mission. Third, Romans 6, written by Paul, explains the message of baptism. (to whom?)

Aloha brother Tim,

Philip did NOT stay a "DEACON".

Acts 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
  #25  
Old 05-01-2009, 08:52 AM
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Granted, George. I was just pointing out a common misconception that the Philip of Acts 8 is not the Apostle Philip. He lost his deaconing job when the Jerusalem church was "downsized". God retrained him for a new job, which continued evidently with his daughters.
  #26  
Old 05-01-2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
As the originator of the thread, I am qualified to define the purpose of the thread. I began with a poll because it is the simplest way to identify the degree of interest in the question.

I would hope that any (one at this moment-Tony) would expound on the reason why we today should not be baptized.

I would also hope that those of us who recognize the Scriptural mandate for believers to be baptized will back up our belief with evidence. [translate-show Tony the error of his ways and hope that he sees the light ... yeah,right! ]

Finally, I would hope that we who are right will present ourselves in a Godly way in all of our posts.

Be it known to all. I am not a dispensationalist. In this issue, I do not think that it makes a difference unless one falls completely over the dispensational ledge, as it appears that Tony has. [After all, he can't be right about everything! ]
Friends, my exposition on water baptism covers a lot of ground as the practice overlaps several dispensations.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

God has dealt with his creation, his creatures, us, in different ways at different times. If my comments go off into the OT, Christ's ministry to Israel, before and after the resurrection, the ministry of Peter and then the ministry of Paul, the Great Commission, rightly dividing Paul and then Acts chapter 29, I'd ask you all not get into a heated discussion among yourselves.. Brother George pegged me exactly right: I'm your brother in Christ and all of you are mine(and sisters too). I don't want to start a contention among you. Let's discuss it, and comment as Christian gentlemen and ladies and once it's run out, I trust we'll be even closer and stronger.

I speak directly, not curt, dismissing, condescending, or short. When the topic runs out so do my comments. Grace and peace to you all, let me show what I am made of, and let's show the lurkers and those who drop by for a look what we all are made of.

Brother Tim, to you I want to say yes, it is sometimes so tiresome being right all the time. Woe is me, woe is we, Jesus wept

Tony
  #27  
Old 05-01-2009, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post


Just kiddin' brother, you know I had to do it...
But seriously, do we have to go there?
He he, that was pretty good Brother Parrish. One of my favorite movies too.

Give me and Brother Tim a try

Grace and peace to you.

Tony
  #28  
Old 05-01-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Aloha Brother Tim,

And as for me, since I am a Bible believer (who considers myself a "moderate" Dispensationalist) and have (in the past) attended "Brethren" churches and Independent Baptist churches; and other Independent "Bible" churches, etc., etc.; and for the last 17 years or so have been a part of a small independent Bible church (modeled on the churches of the New Testament). I not only find myself in agreement with brother Tony most of the time, but would prefer to have him as a friend and a member of this Forum than the Bible deniers; or the Bible correctors; or the Bible "harmonizers"; that have shown up or who may still be members on this Forum today.

I would rather have brother Tony "at my back" than the Humanistic, intellectual, elite, feminized, wishy washy, Humanisnistic "Christians" that abound in our country today. From the moment he joined the Forum, brother Tony has been open and above board about his belief (unlike many who come here), but he also has been circumspect about not "pushing" his personal belief on this Forum.

I personally don't want to see a "debate" over water baptism; we all know what he believes - what will such a debate accomplish? Who will be "edified"? Is the purpose going to be to "isolate" a fellow brother in Christ and possibly drive him away? I want no part in this.

I have disagreed with you on several issues - mainly because I hold dispensational convictions and you don't. But I have never "ragged on" you because we differ on the topic of dispensationalism; rather I have tried to stick to whatever issue we differ on and if at the end of an "exchange" between us, I see that no edification can be gained - I leave it be.

Why is that so? Because I appreciate your testimony; and your attitude; and conduct; and I have learned from your example. Even though we differ on some matters that are important to me (and to you), I consider you a fellow brother in Christ - just as I consider brother Tony a fellow brother in Christ (with whom I differ on a few issues also). I could fellowship with both of you, despite our differences.

I will not take part in a Scriptural "witch hunt" or a Bible "lynching". Brother Tony does not believe that water baptism is for the church; most of us on the Forum believe that it is - but in the broad scope of things that matter in the Bible are we going to castigate, or chastise, or censure him for his belief? I for one - will not participate in such a venture. I refuse to "gang-up" on a fellow brother in Christ over this issue.

If brother Tony came on this Forum and had been obnoxious or antagonistic over the issue, that would be another matter, but he has been careful not to push it, while still letting it be known where he stands. I respect his honesty, even if I disagree with him. And if we were sitting around the kitchen table hashing water baptism out with him, I would "put my oar" in once in a while in support of my belief. But I do not think that the Forum is the place for a knock-down, drag-out battle over water baptism since I know ahead of time that there will be absolutely no profit in the debate at all, and the only thing that we may accomplish is "hard feelings' (or worse) over an issue that has very little bearing on the spiritual state of individual Christians.

There are Scriptural issues that are worth fighting over (and you know that I don't "shy away" from them), but on the other hand there are issues where there is no "profit", i.e. no "edification" to be had. I would suggest we stop biting and devouring one another, and get on with the business at hand: "the ministry of reconciliation". Let sleeping dogs lie brethren, this thing could come back and bite us - big time. Worse yet, if we succeed in driving brother Tony away, we would have lost a fountain of Biblical knowledge , and a "viewpoint" that is both refreshing and unique.

Someday the Lord Jesus Christ is going to straighten us all out on the places where we have been wrong on doctrine; until then: lets extend the "right hands of fellowship" to a fellow brother in Christ. We are in a "WAR", and brother Tony would be a good soldier to have alongside of us as the battle intensifies; and I guarantee you - it will intensify!

We've got enough to contend with (the enemy without & traitors within), without shooting a "combat veteran" because he doesen't want to get wet!
Well friends, Brother George has "found me out". George, you don;t know what an encouragement you are and all of you have been. When I came into this forum I was in bad shape. I have a family illness that eats me alive that I am worrying about because there is nothing I can do about it to relieve it. Since I've been in this forum I'm a better man and a better Christian. George is right and many of you saw it: I came in and right off said, hi guys, I'm Tony, the church splittin' hyperdispensational dry cleaner. I know Stephanos wondered publically why I made it a point to let you know that. I'm a guest here and Brandon Staggs is the webmaster and no doubt has others to help him. I've been treated with friendship and Christian love here, I hope I've reciprocated it. If my meat offends someone, water baptism discussion or no water baptism discussion let's discuss it, be reconciled and move on.

Brandon is the webmaster and the boss here. I know what Brother George's position on water baptism is. Water baptism is not the point, or discussion thereof. Bible study is, and George, I'm not placing a request on you or a burden maybe you don;t want, but I'm demonstrating my honesty and wish to bear witness to what you said about me by proposing you moderate this discussion, and if I were to get out of line, which I have no intention of doing, then spank me. The rest of you willing to place yourselves under George's authority? I am, as of this nanosecond.

Let everything be done decently and in order.

Grace and peace my friends, I'll be back, got to render unto Caesar.

Grace and peace to all.

Tony
  #29  
Old 05-01-2009, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: " Is water baptism for today?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Well friends, Brother George has "found me out". George, you don;t know what an encouragement you are and all of you have been. When I came into this forum I was in bad shape. I have a family illness that eats me alive that I am worrying about because there is nothing I can do about it to relieve it. Since I've been in this forum I'm a better man and a better Christian. George is right and many of you saw it: I came in and right off said, hi guys, I'm Tony, the church splittin' hyperdispensational dry cleaner. I know Stephanos wondered publically why I made it a point to let you know that. I'm a guest here and Brandon Staggs is the webmaster and no doubt has others to help him. I've been treated with friendship and Christian love here, I hope I've reciprocated it. If my meat offends someone, water baptism discussion or no water baptism discussion let's discuss it, be reconciled and move on.

Brandon is the webmaster and the boss here. I know what Brother George's position on water baptism is. Water baptism is not the point, or discussion thereof. Bible study is, and George, I'm not placing a request on you or a burden maybe you don;t want, but I'm demonstrating my honesty and wish to bear witness to what you said about me by proposing you moderate this discussion, and if I were to get out of line, which I have no intention of doing, then spank me. The rest of you willing to place yourselves under George's authority? I am, as of this nanosecond.

Let everything be done decently and in order.

Grace and peace my friends, I'll be back, got to render unto Caesar.

Grace and peace to all.

Tony

Aloha brother Tony,

I thank God for your testimony in this Post and your conduct on this Forum, and if Brandon and others on the Forum are willing to hear you out, that's fine with me - as long as we can keep it "civil" and between "friends".

I had a friend who was an atheist (with a very high I.Q.) and who worked for me (as an electrician - off and on) - who was always on-time; who always gave 100%; who was honest and always did excellent work; and who never charged me enough. I always tried to be up-front with him; and treated him fairly; and always paid him over and above what he charged me.

This man had more integrity than most of the Christians I have dealt with in my life. And, at times, we could (and would) get into some pretty "heated" Bible discussions about creation, the Lord, the Bible, government, etc., - you name it, and we probably talked about it.

The most amazing thing to me is, no matter how "heated" it got between us - we never got "personal"; we never made personal attacks; we never called each other names; and when it was over we continued as if there was nothing wrong. We "agreed to disagree" - it's too bad Christian brethren can't do the same (and I'm not talking about professing "Christians" who are hereticks, false teachers, compromisers, Bible deniers, or Bible correctors, etc., etc., etc.)!

About five years ago this man was dying of cancer, and my wife and I visited with him at his home - twice shortly before he died. He was in awfully bad shape (the cancer was a quick acting variety), and had we known how serious it was sooner - we would have visited with him sooner.

For the two days that we visited with him we held his hand and prayed, and tried to talk with him (he was barely aware of our presence the second and last day), I don't know whether he believed the Gospel and received the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour or not, but this I do know, although he could barely speak, he would squeeze our hands, and he knew that we were there and that we really and truly cared about him personally, and about his eternal welfare.

If we would keep our eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and look at things in terms of eternity - and through Christ's eyes, (and as dying men and women - 2Corinthians 6:9), I believe that we would be far less likely to condemn a genuine fellow brother in Christ for holding a conviction different than ours about a matter, which I consider important, but which conveys no special grace or spiritual sanctification, other than physically following the example of the Lord; the disciples; the Apostles; and the Christians in the early church.

If you decide to proceed:

1 Corinthians 14:26 . . . . . . Let all things be done unto edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 16:14
Let all your things be done with charity.
  #30  
Old 05-01-2009, 03:51 PM
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Well said, George. Excellent testimony as well.

Tony is my brother-in-arms as well as brother-in-Christ. I know that we can communicate on a decent spiritual level, if future discussion is warranted here. Most of the posters here know how to back off when it gets too hot, and the others are reminded to do so by the mature ones when necessary.
 

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