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  #41  
Old 03-19-2008, 08:58 AM
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Grace to Me,
Acts 2:39 doesn't even refer to all the "elect". See context: Acts 2:5-11. Compare also with Jer 46:27 ("afar off"). This verse is addressed to a nation who was "elect" (Isa 42:1; 45:4; 65:9,22), and this does not even include you, a Gentile.
But in Tit. 2:13, there are no "could be's" there. "All men" there is all without exception. Compare with 1 Timothy 2:4-6.
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  #42  
Old 03-19-2008, 09:04 AM
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Eternal security is a careless doctrine. From God's point of view, He offers it eternally. However, to say we can never lose our salvation is nonsense. Why so many warnings in the NT? The major cop-out is "well, he was never really saved in the first place". Oh,, no? Well, then who will he pray to next time? That "plucking out of the hand" scriptures says noting about someone walking out and away from God of their own free will. Do you really believe the Bible teaches that once you get saved, you can't decide to walk away, later? I had an atheist tell me he was a devoted Christian for a lot of years and he just decided it wasn't real and walked away. So, you say he wasn't saved in the first place? That is careless and presumptuous.

For every Scripture you produce to prove eternal security, I can find one that counters it.
  #43  
Old 03-19-2008, 09:10 AM
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The answer is found in 2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Note this verse:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Every passage that says you can lose salvation is when it WAS of works. "But now" (Eph 2:13) it is not only NOT of works (Eph. 2:9) or NOT by works (Tit. 3:5), but it is NO MORE of works. Why no more? It once was.
Every passage that says you can lose salvation is also when it WILL BE of works. Why? If it's by grace, one day it will be NO MORE of works. Why "no more" grace someday? It is of grace NOW, but this period of grace does end.
  #44  
Old 03-19-2008, 09:28 AM
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Revangelist,

Quote:
However, to say we can never lose our salvation is nonsense.
How exactly do we stay saved?

If I can lose it I want to know how. Tell me exactly how a person can lose their salvation.

Now I can tell you exactly how you can get saved. God does not want us to go to hell. If he did he would not have sent Jesus to die for us. So we know that he gave up his son for our salvation. So we know God invested a lot to get us saved.

God made getting saved very simple. So simple even a child could understand it. If we can lose our salvation I am sure that God would make it so simple for us to understand how we could loose our salvation.

I can tell you exactly how you can get saved. So now you tell me exactly how you can get lost.


How exactly do we stay saved?



Atlas

Last edited by atlas; 03-19-2008 at 09:37 AM.
  #45  
Old 03-19-2008, 09:35 AM
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The word "elect" in the Bible should be rightly divided, too.

God has an elect. This elect rejected God's Elect. So God elected an elect out of the elect in this present elect period. During this elect period, He elected another elect. After this elect period of time, God's Elect will descend from heaven to catch his elect out. After that, God's Elect will regather His original elect from the four winds of the earth. Then God's Elect will come down with all the elects from heaven to reign with His elects on earth.
  #46  
Old 03-19-2008, 09:36 AM
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Good question, atlas! It made me think
  #47  
Old 03-19-2008, 10:16 AM
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Grace to Me,
Acts 2:39 doesn't even refer to all the "elect". See context: Acts 2:5-11. Compare also with Jer 46:27 ("afar off"). This verse is addressed to a nation who was "elect" (Isa 42:1; 45:4; 65:9,22), and this does not even include you, a Gentile.
thats the point i was trying to make , every time scripture says all it doesn't mean all without exception , its sometimes spoken as a certain group , like a conductor says all aboard does he mean all inclusive or those who have a ticket?
if all have a choice to accept Jesus Christ what do you do with this verse
Rom.9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

its obvious that God choose one and not the other before they were born , they don't have no free will , because it is not of him that willeth.
all scripture as a whole has to fit , not contradict , so how does this fit with what your saying that God wants all [ all inclusive ]to be saved ?

For every Scripture you produce to prove eternal security, I can find one that counters it.
exactly , thats why we have to see how it fits as a whole, the same words can have different meanings , all can mean all inclusive or all in a certain group , saved might mean eternally or saved from ignorance , fear , troubles etc.

jim

Last edited by grace to me; 03-19-2008 at 10:22 AM.
  #48  
Old 03-19-2008, 11:45 AM
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Hebrews 2:1 ¶Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


The context of this Scripture is 1st spoken to Christians. Next, If we neglect our salvation, it will slip away from us. Doesn't sound like "once saved always saved" to me.
  #49  
Old 03-19-2008, 11:58 AM
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Revangelist,

Now will you answer my question.


How exactly do we stay saved?




Atlas
  #50  
Old 03-19-2008, 12:41 PM
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The only salvation God gives is eternal - that means it lasts forever. It is also given freely, without works or merit - we could never earn it - that means we can also never lose it.

It is not presumption to believe what God says - and the Bible teaches that if someone rejects the truth and turns from it (apostasizes), they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Even this parable shows that those who later turned away never truly believed in their heart - it was a shallow faith, headknowledge.

Luke 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matthew 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
 

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