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  #11  
Old 03-14-2008, 11:50 AM
jerry
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Right you are, Brandon!
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:32 PM
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see next post
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:33 PM
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Calvinism and Arminianism are two extremes of interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Neither is correct so arguing over these doctrines of men and putting your time into it is a waist. you are better off witnessing to the lost than arguing over doubtful things.
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Old 03-15-2008, 12:08 AM
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What is the state of natural man ?
lets look at some verses to find out what his state is .

Eph.2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Col.2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Rom.3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
According to God's Word we are dead , there is none that doeth good. Now can a dead man exercise faith ? how can he do anything good if he is dead ?
if faith cometh by hearing , How can a dead man hear? It's obvious the new birth has to occur before we can believe , because faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
How can we be filled with the Spirit then be born again and recieve the Holy Spirit again , If our belief causes the new birth as many claim ?

GAL.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith ,

How can we be dead , and none that doeth good , but have the fruit of the Spirit , That is contradicting it's self . The new birth has to come before we believe.

Jn.5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

He that heareth [ present tense] and believeth [ present tense ] [ hath ] [ past completed action ] if you are hearing and believing youve already got eternal life . he is passed from death unto life . he's already passed from death unto life.
.
ive heard alot of calvinists say there is nothing you have to do to be saved eternally , all you have to do is believe . notice how contradictory that is , they just got done saying there was nothing to do , then the next thing they say is you got to believe. its not of him that willeth . Our belief is a fruit of the Spirit not something we do that causes us to be saved , if we believe its evidence that we have already been saved , its the effect of our salvation not the cause.

Rom.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Paul says it is not our will , BUT , but is a contrasting word , he contrasts the first part of the verse with the last part , Its of God that showeth mercy. if we say it is our will that gets us salvation , then grace is no more grace , because you are doing something to get salvation , and that is contrary to grace which is a free gift . Its of God , his grace , his mercy.

James1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

its not our will its God's. Many will take this next verse and say God loves the Whole world without exception , that all you have to do is believe and you will be eternally saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

well lets look at the word world in scripture.

Lk.2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
now is this all the world without exception or the world that Caesar Augustus and rome was in control of ? did he tax the indians in north america or the people on hawaii ect. its obvious that he taxed those that he ruled over not the whole world without exception.

Jn.14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
is this the whole world without exception? obviously its not , the world here is obviously talking about the non- elect.

JN.17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world , but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
here we have two contrasting groups , scripture uses the word world sometimes to mean the whole world without exception and sometimes as a certain group in the world .
Jn.17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world , even as I am not of the world .
here we have the world that hated them but they were not of it, the world that hated them [ non-elect] the ones that are not of this world [ elect ]
there are many more verses showing the word world isn't always all inclusive.to say God loves the whole world without exception would contradict other scripture,

Rom.9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
before they were born God hated Esau , you see the world God loves is his elect , many will take the whosoever believeth in him , and say , see all you have to do is believe
and you will get eternal life . this verse doesn't prove that at all , you have to add the word get etc. in order to come to that conclusion, it says that whosoever believeth [ present tense ] has eternal life. it merely states a fact . not a way to obtain eternal life as many teach. your faith doesn't cause you to get eternal life , it is just evidence that you already have it . its by the obediece of one , it doesn't take the obedience of the preacher to preach the Word , then the sinner to have faith , then the obedience of Christ that would be the obedience of three. Scripture plainly teaches its by the obedience of one , many will be made righteous.

Rom.5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
we are saved by grace not something we do , faith is something we do , its a work. JN.6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. believing is a good work , a fruit of the Spirit.

we are saved through faith , and that faith is not of ourselves , it is a gift of God.
WHAT IS THIS GIFT ? It's the gift of Gods Son , We are justified by faith , is it our faith that justifies us ?-- all the modern versions teach this because they change the word of in Rom.3:22 and replace it with the word in making it justification by works.

Rom.3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
the faith of Jesus Christ is the faith spoken of in Eph.2:8
Scripture isn't of any private interpretation it means what it says on the page , you have to look at the words and define them , take them by thier primary meaning unless it causes contradiction with other scripture then you look at secondary definitions , look at the tenses are the past , present , or future etc. God promised to preserve it right down to the jot and tittle , so we can completely trust it .
jim
  #15  
Old 03-15-2008, 12:21 AM
grace to me
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sorry , already posted

Last edited by grace to me; 03-15-2008 at 12:22 AM. Reason: already posted
  #16  
Old 03-15-2008, 12:28 AM
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Rom.3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

According to the verse, the righteousness is by "faith of Jesus Christ". This is not man's faith. This is saving faith and it is Christ's faith. This faith is given as a gift (Eph. 2:8) to those who "believe".

In other words, this faith cannot and will not be given to those who do not "believe"; but those who "believe" will be given this "gift" of "faith of Jesus Christ".

That means then that if a person wants to be saved, he has to have the "faith of Jesus Christ"; but he will never have it, not until he believes.

Now if he believes, he will be saved -- not by his own personal faith, but by the "faith of Christ".
  #17  
Old 03-15-2008, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry View Post
Here's a link that might answer some questions:

What Is Biblical Predestination?
Thanks for that link Jerry! We get the doctrine of predestination from the Bible and not from Calvin.

Last edited by Biblestudent; 03-15-2008 at 12:37 AM.
  #18  
Old 03-15-2008, 12:40 AM
grace to me
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According to the verse, the righteousness is by "faith of Jesus Christ". This is not man's faith. This is saving faith and it is Christ's faith. This faith is given as a gift (Eph. 2:8) to those who "believe".

In other words, this faith cannot and will not be given to those who do not "believe"; but those who "believe" will be given this "gift" of "faith of Jesus Christ".
i agree

That means then that if a person wants to be saved,
it is not of him that willeth.

if a person believes that is evidence that he already has the Holy Spirit ,

We get the doctrine of predestination from the Bible and not from Calvin.
AMEN
jim
  #19  
Old 03-15-2008, 12:55 AM
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Is there only one "elect" in the Bible?
Who is the elect of Romans 9? Jesus, angels, Jacob or Israel, Gentiles, the world, or the Church?
Are all the "elect" saved? Is Israel "elect"? Is every Israelite "elect"? Was all the Twelve "elect"/"chosen"/"ordained"?

King James Bible: For God so loved the "world".
New Elect Bible: For God so loved the "elect".

King James Bible: Love not the "world".
New Elect Bible: Love not the "elect".

King James Bible: "Jacob" (Israel) have I loved.
New Elect Bible: "All the elect" have I loved.

It is clear that Israel as a nation is in view in Romans 9, not the Church.
  #20  
Old 03-15-2008, 12:59 AM
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"Not of him that willeth"

What is the will of God?

"To make ALL MEN see" (KJB)
"That ALL should come to repentance" -- God is not willing that any should perish (KJB)

New Elect Bible - to make the elect see
New Elect Bible - that the elect should come to repentance
 

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