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Old 03-03-2008, 11:34 PM
lei-kjvonly
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Default Do we know "in part" today?

I've been studying out 1 Corinthians 13 about the "that which is perfect" and knowing "in part." Here's my question, if Paul the Apostle said himself that he knew "in part" (1 Cor. 13:12), then why do we believe that we as Christians now don't believe "in part"? I've always said that it was because that which was perfect is come, speaking of the Bible. But if that was the case then what was the difference between Paul and us? Didn't Paul have the same scriptures we have today? I mean doctrinal books. Yes he did because he was the one that wrote our doctrinal books. Here's my point - If he had the same scriptures as us, and he knew in part, then we also know in part today. If that is the case then obviously the "that which is perfect" has not come yet. Because scripture says:

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


What are your thoughts?
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:17 AM
jerry
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1 Corinthians was one of the first New Testament books to be written. At that point in time, the early church only did know in part. We need the full NT to open up the Old Testament for us.

Please consider the points raised in this study, as well as the word studies and parallel passages: 1 Corinthians 13:8-12.

Obviously there are some here who are going to disagree with my overall premise right at the start - but at least read the studies, see which words are used in the passage and the parallel passages (to determine if they are indeed referring to the same thing - ie, the glass/mirror being God's Word, which it is clearly declared in two other NT passages), and see the definitions of the words used - I list both Strong's and Webster's - so even those people who dislike Strong's can still see what the actual English words mean. Then after studying these passages and words out, you will be in a better position to discuss this issue - even if you disagree with my conclusions.

Song of Solomon 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

In the OT, we see Jesus through a lattice, a screen, hidden - until the light of the NT shines on the OT - then you see Him everywhere, in the construction of the tabernacle, in the animal sacrifices, in the countless types, in the Messianic prophecies, and even in many other passages of Scripture (as the one who is speaking - see Isaiah 48:16, as the Angel of the Lord, as God walking in the Garden of Eden - see John 1:18 [it wasn't the Father appearing to them, as no man has seen the Father at any time - it was the Son that took on the appearance of flesh, then later was manifest in the flesh]).
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:45 AM
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1 Cor 13 is between 1 Cor 12 and 14. 1 Cor 13:8 is before 1 Cor 13:10. I think the context shows that the "in part" refers to the gifts spoken of in the context.

The word "perfect" has the idea of completion. Since prophecies shall fail when that which is perfect is come, and Rev 22:18 warns us to stop adding to the prophecy of this book, that we know that there shall be no more prophecies to be added after the last book of the completed Bible.
That Paul knew in part, one may keep in mind that he had not all the "revelations" yet and had not finished writing all his books.
I'm aware of the many other views of "that which is perfect", but of all the views, this one makes sense.
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Old 03-04-2008, 12:01 PM
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Absolutely, we know ONLY in part, hence the need for the question.

"That which is perfect" is not a reference to the perfect book, but rather the perfect "man" (vs.11 illustration). See I John 1:1, "that which" is coming again (I John 3:2) and "when he shall appear, we shall be like him." "Then shall I know, even as I am known" (of God, Gal.4:9)
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Old 03-04-2008, 08:17 PM
jerry
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How is Jesus perfect/complete? He was already so the first time He came - so He won't be any more perfect/complete when He comes again, and this verse surely seems to be indicating they only had in part what was later perfected - which cannot refer to Jesus then. He didn't come in part, and soon is going to be perfected.
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:31 PM
sting of truth
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i got a better idea than reading "selected passages" so you get a "private interpretation" as some are suggesting..

1. read the whole bible, cover to cover and take notes specifically for this topic
2. read and study both sides positions on this topic.

the following titles might help you understand the position better

systematic theoloigy by Stanley M. Horton

Bible Doctrines: A Pentecostal Perspective by William W. Menzies and Stanley M. Horton

Knowing the Doctrines of the Bible by Myer Pearlman

Bible doctrines by P.C. Nelson
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:32 PM
jerry
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No one is suggesting getting a private interpretation. You are not helping your cause by building straw men.
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:38 PM
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"The KJB has a built-in dictionary."
"The best commentary to the Bible is the Bible itself."
"Context determines meaning."

Here's mine:
"The KJB has a built-in 'thesaurus' ".

Using this principles has helped me a lot in Bible study. Here are few examples:

KJV "Thesaurus"

"Synonyms"

WALK BEFORE GOD
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. (See also Gen. 6:9.)
NO BLEMISH
Leviticus 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.
JUST
Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Deuteronomy 25:15 But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
FULLY
1 Kings 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
1 Kings 11:6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
UPRIGHT, FEARED GOD, ESCHEWED EVIL
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
FULNESS
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
COMPLETE
Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
THROUGHLY FURNISHED
2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

"Antonym" of Perfect

IN PART
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
PERVERSE
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
LACKING
1 Thessalonians 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
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Old 03-06-2008, 11:22 AM
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Jerry says: How is Jesus perfect/complete? He was already so the first time He came..."

Oh, but He wasn't. He had to be made "perfect through sufferings" (Heb.2:10) as well as "learn obedience" (see Heb.5:8-9). But when "that which is perfect is come," Paul will be perfect too. Paul is the child waiting to be a man (complete). When Christ comes, Paul will be "like him" for "the second man is the Lord from heaven." (I Cor.15:47)
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:15 PM
jerry
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So now, that which is perfect is Paul... Wonder why he didn't say, when I am perfect? Paul doesn't fit the context of the chapter. Perhaps you could go through verses 8-12 and show us how a spiritually perfected Paul would fit each one.
 

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