Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-19-2009, 12:01 AM
IC@KJV IC@KJV is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9
Question Thou, Thy, Thee, Ye, Thine, etc..

Hello Everyone, Peace be with you.

I have a question regarding the thou, thy, thine, thee, ye,etc.. words in the KJV. I have asked this question before, so please bear with me, as I didn't get a clear answer.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me what each one means, and how it differs from You, yours and the modern day language.

I don't mean to be a nag, but Im realy interested in actually knowing the difference, so I can apply it to when I read my KJV.

Thank You, and be Blessed
The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software
  #2  
Old 02-19-2009, 02:24 AM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

If thee, thou or thine is used it is speaking to you as an individual.

If ye, or you it speaks to you as a group

i.e. John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Thee is speaking to the Individual Nicodemus and the Ye is speaking to all Israel. some say Ye is speaking to all men.

But do a word search and you only find the words born again spoken of concerning Israel it is found only in the books of those who taught Israel the Gospel of Grace. Paul never taught that we were born again in any of his writings and the closest he would have come was Ga 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. we the body of Christ do become new creatures in Christ. And though we may have been born with a dead spirit we were brought to life by Christ's Blood and resurrected life, not by being born again. I am not making any kind of doctrine against using the term born again I only am pointing it out it was never used by Paul consernig the body of Christ

Get the booklet Bible companion by Chick Publication it has a simple explanation in it.

Last edited by chette777; 02-19-2009 at 02:29 AM.
  #3  
Old 02-19-2009, 07:58 AM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IC@KJV View Post
Hello Everyone, Peace be with you.

I have a question regarding the thou, thy, thine, thee, ye,etc.. words in the KJV. I have asked this question before, so please bear with me, as I didn't get a clear answer.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me what each one means, and how it differs from You, yours and the modern day language.

I don't mean to be a nag, but Im realy interested in actually knowing the difference, so I can apply it to when I read my KJV.

Thank You, and be Blessed

Aloha IC@KJV,

Your question is quite appropriate, and the answer is quite simple:

YE / YOU <> THEE / THOU / THY / THINE
*

The use of the pronouns ye, you [plural] and thee, thou, thy, thine [singular] in the King James Bible greatly helps a believer in “rightly dividing the word of truth”. For instance: The King James Bible translators never used the word ye in the singular case. Every time the word ye show’s up in the King James Bible, it is always used to denote a plural pronoun (in reference to - more than one person).

YE, pronoun. The nominative plural of the second person, of which thou is the singular. But the two words have no radical connection. Ye is now used only in the sacred and solemn style. In common discourse and writing, you is exclusively used. But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6.

YOU, pronoun Yu. You has been considered as in the plural only, and is so treated in the Saxon grammar. But from the Belgic dialect, it appears to be in the singular as well as the plural, and our universal popular usage, in applying it to a single person with a verb in the singular number, is correct. Yourself is in the singular number. 1. The pronoun of the second person, in the nominative or objective case. In familiar language, it is applied to an individual, as thou is in the solemn style. In the plural, it is used in the solemn style in the objective case. He that despiseth you, despiseth me. Luke 10.
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary.

And again in reference to the words thee, thou, thy, thine [singular] – The King James Bible translators always used these words in the singular case (in reference to a single person or nation, etc.). Knowing the distinction between thee, thou, thy, thine [singular] and ye, you [plural] helps the Bible believer to distinguish who is being addressed or spoken of.

THOU, pron. in the obj. thee. The second personal pronoun, in the singular number; the pronoun which is used in addressing persons in the solemn style.

Art thou he that should come? Matthew 11.
I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. Psalms 23.

Thou is used only in the solemn style, unless in very familiar language, and by the Quakers.
THOU, v.t. To treat with familiarity.

If thou thouest him some thrice, it shall not be amiss.

THOU, v.i. To use thou and thee in discourse.

THEE, pron. obj. case of thou.

THEE, v.i. To thrive; to prosper.

THINE, pronominal adj. Thy; belonging to thee; relating to thee; being the property of thee. It was formerly used for thy, before a vowel.

Then thou mightest eat grapes thy fill, at thine own pleasure. Deuteronomy 32.

But in common usage, thy is now used before a vowel in all cases.

The principal use of thine now is when a verb is interposed between this word and the noun to which it refers. I will not take any thing that is thine. Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory.
In the following passage, thine is used as a substitute for thy righteousness.

I will make mention of thy righteousness, even of thine only. Psalms 71.

In some cases, it is preceded by the sign of the possessive case, like nouns, and is then also to be considered as a substitute.

If any of thine be driven out to the utmost parts of heaven - Deuteronomy 30.

It is to be observed that thine, like thou, is used only in the solemn style. In familiar and common language, your and yours are always used in the singular number as well as the plural.

THY, a. contracted from thine, or from some other derivative of thou. It is probable that the pronoun was originally thig, thug or thuk, and the adjective thigen. See Thou.

Thy is the adjective of thou, or a pronominal adjective, signifying of thee, or belonging to thee, like tuus in Latin. It is used in the solemn and grave style.

These are thy works, parent of good.
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary.

I hope this may have been of some help to you.
  #4  
Old 02-19-2009, 09:47 AM
Brother Tim's Avatar
Brother Tim Brother Tim is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 864
Default

Chette has given the brief and simple answer and George has given the details. I will just add a couple of examples where the distinction is important.

The shorter one I will quote: (bold underlining mine)
Quote:
Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (32) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Notice that the first verse refers to "you". Without knowing the distinctions in the pronouns, it would seem that Jesus is talking to Peter ("Simon, Simon") alone. Since the "y" pronouns (you, your, yours) are plural, we know that Jesus is speaking of the group in verse 31. The pronoun changes in verse 32 to show that now Jesus is speaking to Peter directly as an individual. "th" pronouns (thy, thou, thee, thine) are singular.

The second example is a homework assignment.
Read Joshua 1:2-9 and notice how the number of the pronoun (singular or plural) shifts in God's words to Joshua. To whom does each promise apply?
  #5  
Old 02-19-2009, 03:43 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default Re: " Thou, Thy, Thee, Ye, Thine, etc.."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Tim View Post
"Chette has given the brief and simple answer and George has given the details. I will just add a couple of examples where the distinction is important.

The shorter one I will quote: (bold underlining mine)
Notice that the first verse refers to "you". Without knowing the distinctions in the pronouns, it would seem that Jesus is talking to Peter ("Simon, Simon") alone. Since the "y" pronouns (you, your, yours) are plural, we know that Jesus is speaking of the group in verse 31. The pronoun changes in verse 32 to show that now Jesus is speaking to Peter directly as an individual. "th" pronouns (thy, thou, thee, thine) are singular.

The second example is a homework assignment.

Read Joshua 1:2-9 and notice how the number of the pronoun (singular or plural) shifts in God's words to Joshua. To whom does each promise apply?"
Aloha Brother Tim,

Excellent Post! I did the "homework assignment" and it sure was "illuminating"!
  #6  
Old 02-20-2009, 04:06 AM
chette777's Avatar
chette777 chette777 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Puerto Princesa City, Palawan Philippines
Posts: 1,431
Default

yeah Joshua is an interesting study. good job guys
  #7  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:13 PM
Will Kinney's Avatar
Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Colorado, a beautiful state with four distinct seasons; sometimes in the same day!
Posts: 252
Default Why "thee" and "ye" are far more accurate

Hi saints. Good stuff posted so far. I also wrote something on this topic and have the same information with a few more concrete examples showing how the modern versions have missed the point, and the King James Bible is ALWAYS right.

Why those "thee"s and "ye"s are more accurate.

Is archaic language always a bad thing? What about all those "Ye"s and "Thee"s? Would you change all those words like "ye, thee, thine, and thy"? Do you know the difference in meaning and why they are actually more accurate than the modernized, generic "you" as found in the NKJV, NIV, NASB, Holman, and ESV?

The popular NIV introduction erects a strawman argument and gives misleading information regarding the use of "thou" "thee" and "thine". On page xviii of my NIV Scofield edition, the editors state: "As for the traditional pronouns "thou" "thee" and "thine" in reference to the Deity, the translators judged that to use these archaisms, along with the old verb forms such as "doest", "wouldest" and "hadst" would violate accuracy in translation. Neither Hebrew, Aramaic nor Greek uses special pronouns for the persons of the Godhead."

To put it kindly, this NIV introduction is pure baloney. First of all, the use of the words thou, thee, and thine are not used only in reference to Deity. They express the Hebrew and Greek singular "you" as opposed to the plural "you" which is rendered as "you", "ye" and "your". Thou, thee and thine are used not only when addressing God but also when speaking to the common man and even to the devil himself. "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get THEE hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:10.

Secondly, instead of "violating accuracy in translation", the fact is the use of such pronouns is FAR MORE accurate to the Hebrew and Greek languages than the generic "you" for both singular and plural.

Most languages have a singular and a plural form of the second person - the person being spoken to - "you". There is the singular "you" and then there is the plural, like "you all". This is found in the Hebrew and Greek languages as well as Spanish, French, Italian and many other world languages.

In English this distinction is expressed by "Thou" meaning "you singular, and you alone" and "Ye" meaning "all of you, plural". This distinction makes a big difference in hundreds of passages in the Bible.

For instance, in Luke 22:31-32 the Lord says to Peter: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have YOU, that he may sift YOU as wheat: But I have prayed for THEE, that THY faith fail not: and when THOU art converted, strengthen THY brethren."

Here the word YOU is plural in both the Greek and the English, meaning Satan was going to sift all of the disciples, "you all"; but Jesus is letting Peter know that He had prayed for him (thee) specifically as an individual.

In John chapter four, the Samaritan woman at the well is speaking to Jesus and says: "Sir, I perceive that THOU art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and YE say (all you Jews) that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

Then the Lord says to this individual: "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when YE shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. YE worship YE know not what: we know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews." Here the YE means "all of you who are Samaritans", not just the individual woman to whom He was speaking.

One of many cases where a lot of confusion is caused by not following the "ye" and "thee" pattern is seen in Jeremiah 5:14. In Jeremiah 5:13-14 the Lord says: "And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them. Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because YE speak this word, behold, I will make my words in THY mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them."

God is referring to the false prophets when He says "because YE speak this word" but He is talking to Jeremiah, the true prophet, when He says "I will make my words in THY mouth fire".

The confusion is seen in such versions as the NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV. The NKJV says: "Because YOU speak this word, Behold, I will make my words in YOUR mouth fire." The NKJV meaning ends up being nonsense.

The NKJV badly misses the correct Hebrew reading of Jeremiah 27:2. The King James Bible, as well as the Hebrew texts, the RV, ASV, Young's and many other translations correctly have God saying to Jeremiah: "Thus saith the LORD to me; Make THEE bonds and yokes, and put them upon thy neck, And send them to the king of Edom...." Even the NASB and ESV have the singular "yourself". However the NKJV changes this singular "thee" into a plural "make for YOURSELVES bonds and yokes". The NIV simply omits the word altogether.

Another among many verses that are cleared up by recognizing this difference between Thee and You is found in Acts 13:34. Here Peter is preaching in a synagogue about Christ, the Son of God. Peter says: "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give YOU the sure mercies of David."

If you neglect this distinction between Thee and You, one would naturally think God is saying to the risen Christ "I will give YOU the sure mercies of David." But He isn't referring to Christ. God is speaking to all HIS PEOPLE - YOU.

In 2 Chronicles 7:17-19 after the dedication of the temple, God speaks to Solomon. He says: "And as for THEE, if THOU wilt walk before me...and do all that I have commanded THEE...Then I will establish the throne of THY kingdom...But if YE turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments...and shalt go and serve other gods..."

First God is speaking individually to king Solomon with THEE, THOU, and THY; but then He addresses all the people of Israel with "YE".

Matthew 26:64 - "Jesus saith unto him, THOU has said: nevertheless I say unto YOU, hereafter shall YE see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." THOU refers to the High Priest. YE and YOU are open to some interpretation, but AT LEAST include all those who were standing there IN ADDITION to the high priest.

John 3:7, 11, "Marvel not that I said unto THEE, YE must be born again." These words were spoken to the individual Nicodemus, but obviously have a wider application. So also at verse 11, "I say unto THEE, we speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen, and YE receive not our witness."

A subtle yet important nuance is found in king David's letter to Joab when he wanted Uriah, the husband of Bathsheba, killed. "David wrote a letter to Joab, saying, Set YE Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire YE from him, that he may be smitten and die." 2 Samuel 12:15.

Here David writes to a single individual Joab, yet he uses the plural form YE. This use of the plural form lessons the personal guilt and responsibility of Joab and places it on the group who is in command of the army. These subtle distinctions are lost in most modern versions.

One more of hundreds of such examples that could be given shows this important distinction between "thee" (an individual) and "you" meaning "you all". The young shepherd David had gone out to meet Goliath the Philistine and he was speaking to one individual, the giant. David says to him: "THOU comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield, but I come to THEE in the name of the LORD..for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give YOU into our hands." David was not just telling Goliath that God would deliver him up, but ALL the Philistines as well - "you all".

A simple rule of thumb is if the word begins with a T, as in thou, thy, thee, and thine, then it is singular; and if it begins with a Y, as in you, your, and ye, then it is plural, meaning "you all".

The use of "thou" and "ye" may be "archaic" because we don't speak this way today, but it is far more accurate and reflects the Hebrew and the Greek languages that underlie the King James text. In fact, not even in 1611 did they speak this way. Read the preface to the KJB and you will see they did not use the "thee"s and "ye"s as they are found in the Scriptures.

The second person singular pronouns in English had largely passed from the language by the time of the writing of the AV. Thus it was "archaic" then as well. So getting rid of it because it is "archaic" is ridiculous, because it was archaic in the first place. The important thing is not whether the word is archaic (for goodness sake, they can look it up in a dictionary or ask someone else who knows) but whether the word is the correct translation. It is, so use it.

The King James translators correctly used these words because it is Biblical language that more accurately expresses the thoughts of God in inspired Scripture.

Not only does the King James Bible use "thy" and "thee" and "ye" but so also do Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishops' Bible, the Geneva Bible, John Wesley's New Testament, the Revised Version of 1881, Webster's translation, the American Standard Version 1901, the Jewish translations of 1917, 1936, the Douay version 1950, Young's, Darby's, the KJV 21st Century version and the Third Millenium Bible.

Even the RSV of 1952 and the NASB from 1960 to 1977 used "thee" and "thou" when addressing God in prayer, though the words "thee" and "thou" are not just used to show reverence for God, but rather express the second person singular of anyone, including the devil himself. The NASB, RSV both say in John 17:2 " THOU HAST given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom THOU HAST given him." But then in 1995 the NASB changed their texts again and now employ the generic "You".

Again, in the RSV of 1950 and the NASB of 1977 we read in Romans 3:4 "That THOU MIGHTEST be justified in THY words, and MIGHTEST prevail when THOU ART judged." So were "thou" and "thee" and their respective verb forms "mightest" and "art" not archaic in 1977, but then became so in the next few years?

In 2 Samuel 7:23 we read part of king David's prayer: "An what nation in the earth is like THY people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for YOU great things and terrible, for THY land, before THY people, which THOU redeemedst to THEE from Egypt."

Here David prays to God in the second person singular, but refers to the people of Israel as YOU. What confusion can result if this distinction in proper pronouns is removed? It could incorrectly be thought that David was praying in part to the nation, or that the land belonged to the people instead of to God.

Once you realize there is an important difference between "thou" and "ye" that exists in the English language as well as the Greek and Hebrew, then many passages are cleared up and more light is shed on the true meaning of the Holy Bible.

The King James Bible is more precise and accurate with its use of "thou" and "ye". When you "update and modernize" these "archaic" words to the generic "you", you do so at the expense of sacrificing an important distinction God has placed in His inspired words.

Will Kinney
  #8  
Old 02-21-2009, 08:41 PM
bibleprotector's Avatar
bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 587
Default

The King James Bible is most precise and accurate with its use of "thou" and "ye".

Quote:
When you "update and modernize" these "archaic" words to the generic "you", you do so at the expense of sacrificing an important distinction God has placed in His inspired words.
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." (Deut. 4:2).
  #9  
Old 02-22-2009, 12:46 PM
IC@KJV IC@KJV is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9
Default

Hello Children of God!

I would like to THANK ALL of YOU who responded to my question. You realy made me understand what the Ye, You, Thy, Thee, etc. mean in the KJV. I started reading the KJV only about 5-8 months ago, after learning that there are SO many mistakes, ommitions, "corrections" in the NIV,NLT,NKJV,NASB, that it was SCARY! I want the accurate translation of the Bible. Not some "watered down" version to make it more "friendly" to people. The Word of God is a Sword, which divides and makes 2 camps, in one is Gods truth, and in the other is peoples translation of Gods truth. I will go with Gods truth ANYTIME.

Again, thank you all, and Be Blessed!
  #10  
Old 02-22-2009, 01:25 PM
Brother Tim's Avatar
Brother Tim Brother Tim is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 864
Default

Glad to help.
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

The King James Bible Page SwordSearcher Bible Software

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:19 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®, Copyright vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study

 
Contact Us AV1611.Com