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  #41  
Old 06-30-2009, 04:42 PM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: "Dispensational Truth and Error"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
Hello GB,

Jesus' Gospel to Nicodemus
John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Peter's Gospel to Cornelius
Acts 10:43 .... whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Paul and Silas' Gospel to the Philippian Jailer
Acts 16:31 ...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

Paul's Gospel to the Romans
Rom. 10:11 ... Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

GB said,
"Paul obviously preached the gospel of Christ crucified. Nobody denies this fact. This is the same gospel the twelve Apostles to the circumcision preached."
And then said,

"Paul and the apostleship to the circumcism clearly recognized the difference"

This seems contradictory.

Aloha John G,

Please consider the following:

The Lord Jesus Christ"s "Gospel" to Nicodemus {BEFORE His actual death, burial & resurrection}:

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



The Apostle Paul's "Gospel" in 1 Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:1
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Please compare the two "Gospels":

In the Gospel of John (Chapter 3) there is NO specific mention of the Lord's death, burial, and especially His RESURRECTION. And there is NO mention of sin (or sins) HOW can the two "Gospels" be the "SAME" - if there is NO specific mention of the RESURRECTION of the Lord Jesus Christ in the entire Chapter Three of the Gospel of John? HOW can the two "Gospels" be the "SAME" - if there is no mention of Christ dying for "our sins"? {The Jews of Jesus' day were required to BELIEVE in Him - that is they were to BELIEVE that He was their Messiah & King}

In 1Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul's DEFINES his "Gospel" - Christ died according to the scriptures; for our sins; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: {From shortly after Paul's conversion up to the present day we are required to BELIEVE Paul's "Gospel": i.e. that the Lord Jesus Christ died for "our sins", and that He was buried, and that he ROSE AGAIN from the dead - all "according to the Scriptures".}

Today, we do not preach a "gospel" without mentioning the fact that "Christ died for our sins"; and we certainly don't omit the fact that He ROSE AGAIN!

I said in another Post:

Quote:
The Lord Jesus Christ NEVER PREACHED TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL HIS DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION. {That is Paul's "Gospel" - "the Gospel of the Grace of God"}
For a more detailed explanation please check out the following Link:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=69

I hope this may be of some help in your search for the truth.
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  #42  
Old 06-30-2009, 05:18 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Greenbear said



Well, to answer your question. I have been a Christian for 44 years, having received Christ as a boy of 11.

I love the way you dispensationalists whether ultra, hyper, or whatever you call yourselves, believe yourselves to have superior knowledge and discernment over other Christians. It is just as several of the articles written by famous men of God have said.

From Dr. H.A. Ironside:



Of course, I'm sure you believe yourself to be far wiser, more knowledgeable, spiritual, and having more discernment than this famous preacher.

If you would read his 7 chapter article, he will prove with scripture (rightly divided) that your belief system is absolutely full of error. Here is the article if you care (or should I say dare?) to read it.

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html

Pastor Ironside was absolutely correct about those who follow this false teaching. They are full of intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent.
I don't hold myself up to be superior to any other christian. Just the opposite is the case. Either way my judgement means nothing because the Lord is the one who will reward us according to our works. What I wrote is what I believe the bible teaches. I believe you are wrong and I wouldn't care if everybody disagreed with me. Show me where I'm wrong, Winman. But you can't because you don't rightly divide the scriptures.
  #43  
Old 06-30-2009, 05:33 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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Winman, chapter 7 doesn't address what I have written. You don't think for yourself you appeal to the authority of other men and let them do your thinking for you. I have to go with what the bible says here. I'm sure I'm not right on every point but it sure lines up with Paul's writings and Acts and the Gospels better than than your one gospel in the history of the world theory.
  #44  
Old 06-30-2009, 05:51 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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George,

I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of the scriptures. As I've made clear on various posts, I have never really attended a church and have just gotten back into the scriptures recently after a decade of barely being in them at all. It would be surprising if I was right on everything. I've written what I believe from what I've read and understood. If you think I'm wrong on anything I would be happy to see you respond if you wanted to. I'm just so tired of hearing brother's arguments that aren't even arguments from scripture rightly divided.
  #45  
Old 06-30-2009, 05:54 PM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
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Default Greenbear..

Good evening GB,
Winman wanted you to read Mr. Ironside's 7 chapter article as opposed to chapter 7 of the article. It seems you didn't rightly divide Winman's comment.
  #46  
Old 06-30-2009, 06:03 PM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Well, to answer your question. I have been a Christian for 44 years, having received Christ as a boy of 11.
I am glad to see you sharing a little more about yourself. but being a Christian for 44 years proves nothing as far as wisdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
I love the way you dispensationalists whether ultra, hyper, or whatever you call yourselves, believe yourselves to have superior knowledge and discernment over other Christians. It is just as several of the articles written by famous men of God have said.
you again accuse people of being superior intellectually while you yourself are being superior in being able to judge others and their hearts, and placing yours and the knowledge of others as more superior than Greenbears, Chette and George. I think Jesus had a name he called people like you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
Of course, I'm sure you believe yourself to be far wiser, more knowledgeable, spiritual, and having more discernment than this famous preacher.
here again you make a clear judgement of Greenbears heart as being "far more wiser and knowledgeable, spiritual and having more discernment" than a FAMOUS man. A Christian celebrity which doesn't prove he had the smarts enough to teach the Bible. And you are exalting the knowledge of a man over the Bible truth and facts, as shown by many scriptures George and others have tired to show. Ironside is just as weak and frail as you or I. Beware of man worship it is subtle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
If you would read his 7 chapter article, he will prove with scripture (rightly divided) that your belief system is absolutely full of error. Here is the article if you care (or should I say dare?) to read it.

Pastor Ironside was absolutely correct about those who follow this false teaching. They are full of intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent.
Ironside is correct you are full of intellectual and spiritual pride. He speaks into a mirror of judgement. Ironside makes the same blind judgement as you, and his study is flawed by the fact of his Theological Slant. I have Ironside's commentary on John. It is easy to look back into historical writings and impose more recent knowledge on it and make it say something other than it did when it was inspired and penned.

This exactly the error of Ironside, you and many others. you make the Gospel of Grace retroactive into the narratives of the four Gospel writers and the Old Testament. They did not and could not have presented the gospel of grace in the life of Christ prior to the revealing of the mystery to Paul. (you have been shown all the scriptures already in many threads and posts)

This is part of Dominion, Replacement and Covenant Theology's technique to read into previous writings the Gospel of Grace. it is a flawed premise and a twisting of scriptures to placate their religious practice today.
  #47  
Old 06-30-2009, 06:05 PM
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chette777 chette777 is offline
 
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John G,

We are not commanded to rightly divide the posts of Winman or any man. the command is to rightly divide the word of truth.
  #48  
Old 06-30-2009, 06:38 PM
JOHN G JOHN G is offline
 
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Default Good discussion

Thanks for your courteous reply Bro. George. No doubt, I still have a lot to learn.

I must contend, however, that Nicodemus already believed in a resurrection.
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

I also think they Nicodemus should have realized [and I believe he eventually did] the powerful loaded terms the Lord Jesus was using. The “Son of man” and Moses and the serpent references should have sent alarms off in Nicodemus’ head to see the Truth sitting before him.
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

Here is Paul before Agrippa and Festus…..

Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


Nicodemus, being a master of Israel, should have seen Him coming.

Good discussion…
  #49  
Old 06-30-2009, 06:49 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN G View Post
Good evening GB,
Winman wanted you to read Mr. Ironside's 7 chapter article as opposed to chapter 7 of the article. It seems you didn't rightly divide Winman's comment.
Just for you and Winman I will read chapters 1-6.
  #50  
Old 06-30-2009, 11:14 PM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
 
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Winman,
Thanks for your concern in recommending Ironside's article. I read chapter 7, then 1-3. Unfortunately, I feel it's a waste of my time to continue so I won't. In my opinion, Ironside resorts to character assassination, name-calling, fear-mongering, straw-man arguments, faulty reasoning, wrong interpretation of scriptures and he doesn't seem very strong in eschatology, either. Attempting to influence opinion by labeling those who disagree as a heretic by the "orthodox" consensus is the oldest trick in the book. I think the correct perspective is that the refomation didn't go very far toward literal interpretation of all scripture unless it is apparent from the text that it should be read otherwise. Men like Ironside were greatly used of God but they didn't go far enough in literal interpretation. It is impossible to literally interpret the scriptures without a dispensational framework. If people want to label me as something or other because I may agree on some points, oh well.

For the record, I never said the church/body of Christ/bride of Christ didn't start with the Jewish church. At this time, to the best of my understanding, I see it as same body, 2 dispensations. Not 2 bodies, 2 dispensations. Definitely not 1 body, 1 dispensation.

If some choose to let other men do their thinking for them and use every kind of argument including appeal to some man's authority rather than sound scriptural ones then that's their business. We all have to face the judgement seat of Christ. I choose to study to show myself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. If that causes some to accuse me of spiritual and intellectual pride then so be it. I'm not the judge.

I will endeavor to follow after charity in my posts: Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Charity never faileth

1 Corinthians 13:4-5.

Last edited by greenbear; 06-30-2009 at 11:21 PM.
 

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