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Old 05-21-2009, 04:07 PM
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Hi sister,

As you know, I used to be in this "We are under the LAW - we must keep the LAW, because CHRIST did!" CAMP. But no longer. Paul taught that we are now under GRACE. Does that mean we throw away the Law? NO, but it has been FULFILLED by Christ. The sacrifice necessary under the LAW was given once and for all by Jesus Christ. I believe in that and trust in that.

Romans 4:14
"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"

Galatians 3
19 - "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."
21 -Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 - But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise of the faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 - But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 - But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 - For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Jassy
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  #12  
Old 05-21-2009, 04:30 PM
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Fredoheaven Fredoheaven is offline
 
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Default The Blood of Jesus

Hebrews 10 centers Christ. Here is the offering of Christ body once for all. Under the law, it is required that he who sinned will make an offering to God and the blood sacrifice covereth only. There is no way to wash or take away sins. For this reason Christ sacrificed on the cross of calvary is superior and indeed a perfect sacrifice over the many sacrifices of the Old Covenant or the Law. The law then was shadow of good things to come and that was Christ. Because of Christ offering of his body and blood sacrifice, believers of Christ become a priest and Christ being the High Priest, in which we have the boldness to enter into the holiest over the house of God.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Having therefore Christ, we can draw near in a full assurance of faith and we can say that our profession of our faith does not waver. The application of Hebrews 10:19-25 is that we can now have fellowship with one another provoking unto love and good works because of what Christ done and certainly we can do that in our fellow believers in the church. This is why we need not forsake the assembly as the manner of some is.. I don't really believe in a man who says he beleives the Bible yet not practicing what is taught in the Bible.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
  #13  
Old 05-21-2009, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredoheaven View Post
Hebrews 10 centers Christ. Here is the offering of Christ body once for all. Under the law, it is required that he who sinned will make an offering to God and the blood sacrifice covereth only. There is no way to wash or take away sins. For this reason Christ sacrificed on the cross of calvary is superior and indeed a perfect sacrifice over the many sacrifices of the Old Covenant or the Law. The law then was shadow of good things to come and that was Christ. Because of Christ offering of his body and blood sacrifice, believers of Christ become a priest and Christ being the High Priest, in which we have the boldness to enter into the holiest over the house of God.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Having therefore Christ, we can draw near in a full assurance of faith and we can say that our profession of our faith does not waver. The application of Hebrews 10:19-25 is that we can now have fellowship with one another provoking unto love and good works because of what Christ done and certainly we can do that in our fellow believers in the church. This is why we need not forsake the assembly as the manner of some is.. I don't really believe in a man who says he beleives the Bible yet not practicing what is taught in the Bible.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Yes, brother!! Thank you for mentioning the BLOOD of Christ. The vital BLOOD sacrifice is indeed what this centers on. His BLOOD sacrifice was sufficient for all sin, for all time... to whomever believes by faith and APPLIES it in their life.
  #14  
Old 05-21-2009, 05:19 PM
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Cody1611 Cody1611 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by biblereader View Post
WHAT?!?

So when I say that it does not apply to us today, I am saying that since it was not written to us but written to first century Jewish believers, it is instructional for us gentiles but not meant to be read as if it is specific instructions TO US GENTILES.

Where did you pick up this lie of the devil? ANYONE who is truly born again, is a recipient of, and responsible for, knowing the entire bible. We do live in the New Testament time, though, so, since we're saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, we are not under the laws of the OT.
John is correct. We are Gentiles and Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. We are in the Age of Grace. Hebrews is not written to the Church Age Saint. I suggest you read some books on Rightly Dividing. Maybe "Rightly Dividing the Word by Larkin".

God bless
  #15  
Old 05-22-2009, 12:26 PM
Bro. Parrish
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Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
Hi sister,

As you know, I used to be in this "We are under the LAW - we must keep the LAW, because CHRIST did!" CAMP. But no longer. Paul taught that we are now under GRACE. Does that mean we throw away the Law? NO, but it has been FULFILLED by Christ. The sacrifice necessary under the LAW was given once and for all by Jesus Christ. I believe in that and trust in that.
Very good Jassy... I can tell you are resting in God's grace.
If I may ask, what is your background with respect to keeping the law?
  #16  
Old 05-22-2009, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
As you know, I used to be in this "We are under the LAW - we must keep the LAW, because CHRIST did!" CAMP. But no longer. Paul taught that we are now under GRACE. Does that mean we throw away the Law? NO, but it has been FULFILLED by Christ. The sacrifice necessary under the LAW was given once and for all by Jesus Christ. I believe in that and trust in that.

Jassy
Jassy, I am glad you've come to understand the freedom, liberty, and victory that is ours in Christ Jesus alone. Many are fearful of teaching GRACE because they think it will direct others to a care free sinful lifestyle when in reality the opposite is true.

You made this observation:

Quote:
Does that mean we throw away the Law?
I think I know what you are saying here. But we are actually told to "cast it (the law) out." Anyone today who attempts to place us back under the law is either ignorant (no disrespect intended) of GRACE or is "spying out our liberty" which is ours in Christ Jesus. The immature Christian relates and connects the word "liberty" in Christ with the word "license" to sin. That is a gross error as a result of failing to rightly divide the word of truth. In saying that, it's important for us to know that when we truly teach the full message of GRACE some will abuse it. But the fact is, GRACE never loses its efficacy because the person who is full of GRACE and truth abides in us.

Consider this portion of Galatians:
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
All that we need for righteousness and sanctification in in Christ Jesus our Lord. So, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1).

My earnest desire is to see all of us "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
  #17  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:22 PM
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Jassy Jassy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish View Post
Very good Jassy... I can tell you are resting in God's grace.
If I may ask, what is your background with respect to keeping the law?
Bro Parrish - I used to be a member of the Worldwide Church of God (Armstrong). Wow! Was I ever misled! Thankfully the Lord through the Holy Spirit led me to know that there was something very unholy about that church and I left it. I floundered around for awhile and finally came to discover the KJV. I have been a KJV supporter/uplifter ever since! It was my own personal studies of the KJV that led me to understand about GRACE.
  #18  
Old 05-22-2009, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
Jassy, I am glad you've come to understand the freedom, liberty, and victory that is ours in Christ Jesus alone. Many are fearful of teaching GRACE because they think it will direct others to a care free sinful lifestyle when in reality the opposite is true.

You made this observation:



I think I know what you are saying here. But we are actually told to "cast it (the law) out." Anyone today who attempts to place us back under the law is either ignorant (no disrespect intended) of GRACE or is "spying out our liberty" which is ours in Christ Jesus. The immature Christian relates and connects the word "liberty" in Christ with the word "license" to sin. That is a gross error as a result of failing to rightly divide the word of truth. In saying that, it's important for us to know that when we truly teach the full message of GRACE some will abuse it. But the fact is, GRACE never loses its efficacy because the person who is full of GRACE and truth abides in us.

Consider this portion of Galatians:
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
All that we need for righteousness and sanctification in in Christ Jesus our Lord. So, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1).

My earnest desire is to see all of us "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
Brother Forrest, thank you very kindly for the valuable information. My view is that we can never say that God's Law was BAD. He created it - so it was good and served its purpose for the Jews. That is why I said that we don't throw away the Law. It did serve its purpose - but it is not for us today. We are today under GRACE, as the apostle Paul has taught us.
  #19  
Old 05-22-2009, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by biblereader View Post
I have read this section of holy Scripture, many times, and have wondered if I am right, in my conclusions.
I won't say what those are, because I don't want to sway anyone, but I would like to hear your thoughts on this. What is Jesus telling us?

22: Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23: Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24: And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Sister, that is the intellectual contention between me specifically with most of the members of this forum in the water baptism thread and dispensationalists thread: Genesis through Acts 28 are Time Past, The Things Written Aforetime. Church Doctrine for today is through Paul, Romans through Philemon. Hebrews through Revelation is Tribulation doctrine.

You have to have a foundation to begin from: The Church, the Body of Christ is primarily and overwhelmingly Gentiles(non-Jews). The only hope Gentiles had before Paul was through Israel rising and being exalted. They fell in Acts 7, Paul was called to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Christ revealed to Paul a mystery not made known in ages past: Jew and Gentile would be equal in one Body due to Israel's fall. In Galatians 2 he made it clear that Peter James and John would preach the kingdom gospel to the Jews, Paul would preach the message of grace apart from the works of the law through Christ's blood to everyone. Paul was a wise masterbuilder who was custodian of 3 dispensations: from Law to Grace, through the Grace age NOW, and into the beginning of the Tribulation from Grace back to the kingdom of heaven message for AGES TO COME.

Ephesians 2 tells of how we Gentiles were without hope in TIMES PAST, BUT NOW, the middle wall of partition has been broken down by Christ's blood and we who were afar of are now made nigh(equal) by the blood of Christ and the glory that will be revealed in us in AGES TO COME. Paul rightly divides the Bible into 3 ages: Times Past, But Now, Ages To Come. God's dealings with man are in three parts:

Genesis-Acts 28 To the Jew First-Gentiles can only be accepted if they bless Israel and convert to Judaism.
Romans-Philemon Salvation by grace apart from the works of the Law is open to both Jew and Gentile equally.
Hebrews-Revelation To the Jew First again, God returns to dealing strictly with Israel, Gentiles must enter in through Israel again.

Ephesians 3 teaches us the mystery, the Body, where now Jew and Gentile are equal, and this message was given only to Paul and no one else.

Sister, you have to rightly divide the Scriptures as Paul tells you, otherwise you will:

1. Not know who you are in Christ.
2. Where you are going.

And you will have no assurance of either.

Grace and peace to you and I know that is confusing. Read Ephesians 2 and 3, read Galatians 2 and the contention between Paul and Peter and how the matter was settled. Read Romans through Philemon and find out who you are TODAY, then read what He did in TIMES PAST and what He will do, with us beside Him, in AGES TO COME.

Thank God for His grace, thank God that since 1611 we are the only members of the Body to have a complete Bible, all in one place, and you can go to a thrift shop or Dollar Store and find one. Nowhere at no time on earth has a complete and incorruptable, given by inspiration copy of "the book of the Lord", in the millions, been available. You have all the counsel of God in your hands. Study it to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth, the word of grace, the word of God.

Tony
  #20  
Old 05-22-2009, 07:00 PM
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Most of the Bible does not apply to us today because it is not written to us. That does not mean that it is not profitable for our instruction:

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

But it does mean that it does not apply to us today in the sense that we are not commanded to obey it because it is not written to us. If we act as if it is we are in a sense reading someone elses mail as if it is our own. So when I say that it does not apply to us today, I am saying that since it was not written to us but written to first century Jewish believers, it is instructional for us gentiles but not meant to be read as if it is specific instructions TO US GENTILES

pre-mill means I believe that the Bible teaches that a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth from Jerusalem is yet to come. So we are in age that precedes the millennium.

pre-trib mean that I believe that the Bible teaches that preceding the millennium there will be a seven year period of tribulation.
Exactly right John. I Peter teaches we are born again by His word, His word is incorrutible. Hebrews teaches the Deity of Christ, Acts 20 teaches that Christ was Man, He was God, and God had blood. Ezekiel 2 teaches that even when people resist the message we preach, we preach it anyway so that a prophet of God has been among them and they have no excuse. Acts 17 is the pattern we will find in preaching the gospel, some will scoff, some will respond. Luke 4 teaches that even to Satan we respond with It Is Written!

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine; Church doctrine for today is found only in Romans through Philemon, through our apostle, Paul, who received Romans through Philemon from God directly by inspiration.

Grace and peace.

Tony
 

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