Bible Versions Questions and discussion about the Bible version issue.

 
 
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  #211  
Old 01-03-2009, 01:19 PM
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Debau Debau is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Tandi View Post
I have another question for you, or any who are reading.......

How should I answer a friend who claims that Jesus did not consider the Scriptures inerrant? Any zingers that clearly refute this? Also, could you direct me to resources/articles/posts concerning Biblical Inerrancy that are clear and concise? What are the best "zingers" for those who scoff?

Shalom,

Tandi
I couldn't transfer this from Word with highlights and bold, so it might be hard to decipher. This should answer your friend.


Jesus' View of Scripture



He believed in the Genesis account of creation :


Matthew 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


Mark 10:6-8 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.


He believed in the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch:


Matthew 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?


He believed in the historicity and universality of the Nohaic Flood

Matthew 24:37-39 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


He believed in the historicity of Abraham

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


He believed in the historicity of Sodom and Gomorrah


Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


Matthew 11:23-24 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.


He believed Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt

Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.


He believed God gave manna from heaven to Israel

John 6:31-32 John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.


John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.


John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


He believed in the Davidic authorship of the Psalms

Matthew 22:43-44 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?


He believed in the historicity of Jonah and the whale

Matthew 12:39-41 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.


He believed in the Danielic authorship of Daniel

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)


He believed in the unity of the book of Isaiah


Matthew 13:14-15 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.


John 12:38-41 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.


He believed the Jews had a history of rejecting God’s Word

Luke 11:47-51 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.


He accepted the Old Testament Jewish canon, but rejected the Apocrypha

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


He scolded the Sadducees for their ignorance of Scripture

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


He taught that every word of Scripture proceeded from God

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


He taught the doctrine of the preservation of Scripture

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


He taught that the Old Testament Scriptures pointed to Him

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


He taught that man will be judged by God’s Word


John 12:47-48 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



He taught the absolute authority of Scripture



John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


He pre-authenticated the New Testament writings as Scripture.


John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



He never corrected or criticized Scripture, even though He did not possess the original autographs.


John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.



He never involved Himself in higher or lower criticism or attempted to recover the original autographs.

He either knew Scripture was the Word of God and said it was, did not know if Scripture was the Word of God or not and said it was, or knew Scripture was the not Word of God and said it was anyway. The first opinion is the whole truth of matter.
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  #212  
Old 01-03-2009, 01:33 PM
Tandi
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Thank you, Debau, VERY HELPFUL!

(I am beginning to figure out the Search feature as well. This site is rich for mining gems. Am I allowed to cut and paste posts and use them on my blog or at other forums? Is there a rule about this that I need to be aware of?)

Shalom,

Tandi
  #213  
Old 01-03-2009, 02:48 PM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: "Tandi's Questions"

Quote:
"I have another question for you, or any who are reading.......

How should I answer a friend who claims that Jesus did not consider the Scriptures inerrant? Any zingers that clearly refute this? Also, could you direct me to resources/articles/posts concerning Biblical Inerrancy that are clear and concise? What are the best "zingers" for those who scoff?"


Shalom,
Tandi
Aloha Tandi,

I believe that our brother "Debau" answered your first question as well as anyone could.

As to Biblical "inerrancy", if you search through http://av1611.com/kjbp/ you will find lots of articles and essays (by various authors) dealing with the accuracy of the King James Bible. Brother John Hinton is especially good on those topics he covers (he probably is at home in a dozen languages or more!).

On the AV1611 Bible Forum: The Thread - The Inspiration of Scriptures By Moses LemuelRaj {Secunderabad, India} are some of the best essays I have read on the "inspiration" of Scripture.

As to your last inquiry: "What are the best "zingers" for those who scoff?" I wouldn't waste my time with "scoffers" (Sophists). They have no interest in the truth, they are only interested in criticism and debate. There is no profit in trying to convince a "scoffer" of God's Truth:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.


Proverbs 15:32
He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding.


The following "counsel" is as appropriate today as it was in Solomon's day:

Proverbs 22:20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
  #214  
Old 01-03-2009, 02:56 PM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: "Tandi's Questions II"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tandi View Post
"Thank you, Debau, VERY HELPFUL!

(I am beginning to figure out the Search feature as well. This site is rich for mining gems. Am I allowed to cut and paste posts and use them on my blog or at other forums? Is there a rule about this that I need to be aware of?")

Shalom,
Tandi
Aloha Tandi,

I can only speak for myself - As far as I'm concerned, you may use anything that I have Posted on this Forum, or that is on my web page - as long as you don't "alter" or "change" the words that are written.
  #215  
Old 01-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Tandi
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Thank you, George, for your helpful and wise words (and permissions). I hope I used too strong a word in referring to my friend as a scoffer because those Scriptures are zingers for sure! They make me wince for the sharpness. Yet they are very true.

I am reading the article you recommended now. Looks good.

Blessings,

Tandi
  #216  
Old 01-03-2009, 11:50 PM
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Debau Debau is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tandi View Post

Am I allowed to cut and paste posts and use them on my blog or at other forums? Is there a rule about this that I need to be aware of?

Shalom,

Tandi
Well, I hope I didn't violate any copyright infringement law here!
(no copyright on the Text!)

I just copied out the verse references from the article here by John A. Kohler III.

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0096.htm

I thank him for reminding me of good references for Jesus' view of the integrity of the Scripture, of which example with Whom I fully concur!

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Psalms 56:10 In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.
  #217  
Old 01-04-2009, 02:25 AM
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stephanos stephanos is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debau View Post
Well, I hope I didn't violate any copyright infringement law here!
(no copyright on the Text!)

I just copied out the verse references from the article here by John A. Kohler III.

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0096.htm

I thank him for reminding me of good references for Jesus' view of the integrity of the Scripture, of which example with Whom I fully concur!

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Psalms 56:10 In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.
Thanks Debau. Truly our Lord is amazing, and I want to requote a verse you quoted because it nearly moved me to tears just now.



For JESUS sake!
Stephen

Last edited by stephanos; 01-04-2009 at 02:36 AM.
  #218  
Old 01-04-2009, 11:53 AM
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Will Kinney Will Kinney is offline
 
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Default Proverbs 22:20-21 and the Bible Babel

Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post

The following "counsel" is as appropriate today as it was in Solomon's day:

Proverbs 22:20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
[/FONT]
Hi saints. Great proverb. However it too has been messed with in many modern versions.

Proverbs 22:20-21 "Have not I written to thee EXCELLENT THINGS in counsels and knowledge, that I might make thee know the certainty of THE WORDS OF TRUTH; that thou mightest answer THE WORDS OF TRUTH to them that send unto thee."

"Have not I written unto thee EXCELLENT THINGS" is the reading found in the Revised Version 1881, the American Standard Version of 1901, the Jewish translations of 1917, 1936, and the 1998 Complete Jewish Bible, the NKJV 1982, the NASB 1972-1995, Darby 1870, the Amplified bible 1987, Green's MKJV 1998, Third Millenium Bible, the 1997 Biblia de las Américas, and the Italian Diodati - “cose eccellenti”, the Portuguese Almeida - “excelentes coisas “, and even the 2000 Portuguese NIV called O Livro, put out by the International Bible Society - “coisas excelentes.”

Such versions as the Geneva bible, the Spanish Reina Valera and Youngs render this as: Have not I written to thee THREE THINGS...?. The Catholic versions are all over the board. The Douay says "THREE MANNER OF WAYSt"; while the St. Joseph New American Bible has "Have not I written to you "The Thirty"?, and the Jerusalem Bible has "to you the THIRTY CHAPTERS?"

Lamsa’s 1936 version differs from them all saying: “Behold, THIS IS THE THIRD TIME that I have written them to you”, but it does have “the words of truth” twice, as does the KJB and the Hebrew texts.

On the other hand, the RSV, NIV, ESV, and Holman Standard tell us: "Have I not written to you THIRTY SAYINGS...?".

The second part of these two verses is all confused and messed up in some of the modern versions as well. The King James Bible as well as the Hebrew text itself repeats the same phrase “the words of truth”, that thou mightest answer “the words of truth” to them that send unto thee.”

Agreeing with the KJB in translating both phrases as “the words of truth” are the Geneva Bible, the Jewish translations of Jewish Publication Society 1917, the Hebrew Publishing Company 1936 translation, the Complete Jewish Bible, the Judaica Press Tanach, the RV, ASV, Darby, the NKJV 1982, Green’s literal 2000, the French Martin 1744, Louis Segond 1910 and the 1996 Ostervald - “paroles de vérité”, Italian Diodati -”palavras de verdade”, the Portuguese Almeida -”palavras de verdade”, and the Spanish Reina Valera 1960, 1995 - “las palabras de verdad”.

However instead of the definite and authoritative“the words of truth” many modern versions weaken, dilute, downgrade and obscure the meaning of this phrase. Instead of “the words of truth” we now have “reliable and sound answers”, “correctly answer” and“ a dependable report”.

The NIV says: “Have I not written THIRTY SAYINGS for you, sayings of counsel and knowledge, teaching you TRUE AND RELIABLE WORDS, so that you can give SOUND ANSWERS to him who sent you? “

The NASB also weakens and downgrades the “words of truth” to this: “Have I not written to you EXCELLENT THINGS of counsels and knowledge, To make you know the certainty of the words of truth That you may CORRECTLY ANSWER him who sent you?”

The Holman Standard has: “Haven't I written for you THIRTY SAYINGS about counsel and knowledge, in order to teach you true and reliable words, so that you may give A DEPENDABLE REPORT to those who sent you?”

As is often the case, the scholars disagree with each other on how this passage should be translated. John Gill notes different ways some render the passage, but sides with the King James Bible reading. He says: "Have not I written to thee excellent things…In the Scriptures. Some render it, "three things" and think that Solomon refers to the three divisions of the Scriptures among the Jews, the law, the prophets, and holy writings; so Jarchi; but some of those writings then were not: or to the three books written by him; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs... But it is best, with Kimchi, Gersom, and Ben Melech, to render it, "excellent things", as we do."

Will Kinney
 

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