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  #11  
Old 03-02-2008, 01:57 PM
Pastor Mikie
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Quote: Jerry Yup, and NO ONE today is using the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation according to how 1 Corinthians 14 instructs.

And you know this how?
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  #12  
Old 03-02-2008, 02:21 PM
jerry
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By a simple comparison between their doctrine and practices on this issue with the Bible.

No women speaking in tongues or prophesying - yet the tongues movement is filled with women preachers and tongues-speakers.

Only two or three speaking in one meeting, and taking turns, plus an interpretor or else they must be silent. Yet, I have seen whole churches doing this at one, no interpretor.

The teaching that all should speak in tongues - when the Bible indicates that God did NOT give the gift to all. Plus, the teaching that it is the evidence of being saved and/or being filled with the Spirit of God - which does not line up with the Bible.

The Bible also teaches it is the least of the gifts - yet charismatics and pentecostals want to make it the greatest.

The gifts were given to to edify the church - yet many teach that you can have a private prayer tongue language (which the Bible does not teach anywhere).

As has already been pointed out, tongues were a sign to lost Jews - yet we see many churches filled with Gentiles only who practice this.
  #13  
Old 03-02-2008, 02:38 PM
sting of truth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry View Post
By a simple comparison between their doctrine and practices on this issue with the Bible.

No women speaking in tongues or prophesying - yet the tongues movement is filled with women preachers and tongues-speakers.

Only two or three speaking in one meeting, and taking turns, plus an interpretor or else they must be silent. Yet, I have seen whole churches doing this at one, no interpretor.

The teaching that all should speak in tongues - when the Bible indicates that God did NOT give the gift to all. Plus, the teaching that it is the evidence of being saved and/or being filled with the Spirit of God - which does not line up with the Bible.

The Bible also teaches it is the least of the gifts - yet charismatics and pentecostals want to make it the greatest.

The gifts were given to to edify the church - yet many teach that you can have a private prayer tongue language (which the Bible does not teach anywhere).

As has already been pointed out, tongues were a sign to lost Jews - yet we see many churches filled with Gentiles only who practice this.
but yet there is not a single verse in the bible that says women, woman, and tongues in the same verse. so obviously just liek always you are either twisting the bibleto make it say what you want it to, or you just plain out don't know what you're talking about.. and if you agree that ALL the disciples spoke in tongues on the day of pentecost then you must admit that women did to, because women were in the upper room. but then you need to clarify do you mean the gift of tongues, OR the being filled with the Holy Spirit. i knwo you don't believe a believer can be filled with the Holy Spirit but i believe God is unchanging, just a variance of you and the bible on that part
  #14  
Old 03-02-2008, 04:06 PM
Pastor Mikie
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My exception to your statement is because you said "No One" today...

Unless you are omnipresent or omniscient, you can't make that claim. The instructions from Paul were to gentiles. It can be assumed there were abuses then, and there are abuses now. But that doesn't negate the authenticity of the gifts.

Paul said in 1st Corintians 14:14 that he prayed with the spirit, sense small "s", his spirit. And he said his understanding was unfruitful. I take this to mean he must have spoke in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

He didn't say they didn't speak with tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

He wanted them to speak in tongues, and set down the guidelines.

1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

He didn't want tongues to be forbidden, just kept under control.

There's plenty of Scripture supporting tongues and its proper use. If you don't want to, then don't.

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Like I believe was stated in another posting, ignorant isn't an insult. Just states a gap in knowledge. Wilfully ignorant is another matter.
  #15  
Old 03-03-2008, 04:19 AM
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1 Corinthians is an epistle written when Paul was reaching the remnant of JEWS during the TRANSITION PERIOD in the book of Acts (a transition from LAW to GRACE). Tongues were a sign for the Jews. It WAS needful to have signs to confirm the word for them to believe. Now in this GRACE PERIOD, tongues have ceased; for God has stopped his dealings with the Jews (Rom. 9-11) and He's dealing now with the Body of Christ where there is no Jews, nor Gentiles.

I don't have the gift of tongues. Do I have to speak in tongues? Am I false preacher since I have no signs to "confirm the word" (Mark 16)?

Tongues are languages. If you have the gift of tongues, talk to me in Hiligaynon. I would sure marvel if I hear you speak in my own tongue, wherein I was born.

The guidelines in 1 Corinthians were set for those who spoke in tongues in the church during the early Acts period, and they have now ceased since there is no use for it today. The Jews had an advantage during the Acts period ("Jew first"), but now they don't.

Last edited by Biblestudent; 03-03-2008 at 04:20 AM. Reason: from changed to for
  #16  
Old 03-03-2008, 08:19 AM
jerry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sting of truth View Post
but yet there is not a single verse in the bible that says women, woman, and tongues in the same verse.
The context of 1 Corinthians 14 is dealing with tongues and propheSying (ie. preaching) - and in that same chapter women are told to keep silent in the churches - that means women are forbidden specifically from speaking in tongues and preaching in the church.

Quote:
i knwo you don't believe a believer can be filled with the Holy Spirit but i believe God is unchanging, just a variance of you and the bible on that part
I said I do not believe in tongues for today - nor that the tongues people are using today are Biblical tongues. I certainly do believe in being filled with the Holy Spirit - as the Bible commands us to be, and shows the early disciples being filled for witnessing and service. You equate being filled with tongues - the Bible does not.

Ephesians 5:18-20 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

It doesn't say speak in tongues, but be filled with the Spirit, which means controlled or influenced by. That will result in praising God, exhorting the brethren, giving thanks to the Lord, etc.
  #17  
Old 03-03-2008, 08:23 AM
jerry
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Paul spoke in tongues more than them all. Let's see, he knew Hebrew, spoke and wrote in Greek, and travelled as a missionary - so he knew many language/tongues. And he desired that they also knew more languages to get the Gospel out more.

Still, you haven't dealt with the instructions given in that chapter on how to use those tongues/languages. And some of your statements are based on assumptions - ie. he must have. Since when do we base theology on assumptions?
  #18  
Old 03-03-2008, 09:04 AM
Pastor Mikie
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Jerry, good question, I ask the same question to you.
  #19  
Old 03-03-2008, 09:35 AM
Pastor Mikie
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Bible student, I think I deal with your questions. If you don't want to speak with tongues, then you don't have to.

Telling me that the gifts I've witnessed personally (that I can support Scripturally) are somehow not real (because your interpretations are based on personal bias), or they are fake or maybe even from the devil (though no one has actually come out and said that yet) is somewhat amuzing and even laughable.

You don't want it, need it or believe it, your choice. Your arguments aren't going to convert many away from something wonderful they've received from the Lord.

I've had this discussion with lots of folks of your persuasion. They all use the same arguments. Out of those, there are some who don't feel threatened by my statements. So, they don't sound hostile or angry (as some here do). They just don't believe as I do.

You aren't going to talk me out of it. It's in the Bible in plain English as far as I'm concerned. You have no solid Biblical proof that the "sign gifts (as you call them)" have been taken away. What you appear to be doing is trying to use history by explaining to me the unique circumstances around the writings themselves. That's doing the same kind of thing "Bible-correctors" do. Or you are trying to identify a general statement used in an illustration of the apostle Paul as something identified when it is not. Maybe you even feel that Paul was being hypothetical in 1st Corianthians 12 & 14. Whatever explaination you give, it requires something other than Scripture to substantiate.

I acknowledge that all of us tend to interpret the Bible based on personal bias. But, I've tried to see your point of view. As a matter of fact, I used to believe as you do. What changed my mind was what happened during a Bible study in 1975 where some JW's were trying to infultrate it. The leader of the study decided the best way to "drive" these people away wasn't by arguing with them, but to begin praying. We all gathered into a circle, held hands and began to pray. I started to speak in tongues. I stopped myself. The JW's were freaked out. I stopped myself because I was taught this kind of thing was from the devil and I didn't want to be of the devil. It happened again. This time I decided it was real, and from the Lord. The JW's disappeared for good.

This caused me to search the Scriptures profusely. I objectively could not see where God ever removed the gifts of the Holy Ghost from the church. You might accuse me of getting my theoloy from experience and not the Scriptures. That's not true. I tested my experience with the Scriptures and found that it was Biblical.

Again, it sounds like some of you just want to be angry about this. Maybe you feel threatened by it. I'm sorry. God has given me something wonderful (and many others). I admit there are loads of abuses out there. There are as many abuses of the gifts of the Spirit as there are abuses of the doctrine salvation. But it doesn't negate what is real.
  #20  
Old 03-04-2008, 05:34 AM
fundy
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Hi Pastor Mikie,

I havent read through this thread, so you may have already answered these questions;

When speaking in tongues, which language or languages do you speak in and what is it you say? Is it the same thing all the time or do you say different things.

The reason I ask this is that I have spoken to several people who claim this gift, but none of them have ever been able to remember what they said.

I am also interested to know wether or not you can go to say, Chinatown,
(most cities have a Chinatown) and preach to the Gospel to people there in Chinese? Or could you knock on the door of a person who may be of Indian extraction and explain the Gospel to them in Hindi?

I personally believe that the gift of tongues in the Biblical sense has passed away, that you feel differently is fine with me. I am just curious as to how you utilise your ability.

fundy
 

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