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Old 10-31-2008, 09:26 AM
aussiemama
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Default God hates the sinner or just the sin?

It seems that there are passages in the Bible that teach that God hates sinners. I don't like that idea, but it appears to be Biblical. My whole life I had heard that "God hates the sin, not the sinner" but somewhere in Psalms it says that God hates sinners. What is the truth on this matter?
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by aussiemama View Post
It seems that there are passages in the Bible that teach that God hates sinners. I don't like that idea, but it appears to be Biblical. My whole life I had heard that "God hates the sin, not the sinner" but somewhere in Psalms it says that God hates sinners. What is the truth on this matter?
I've never really thought about that. God "hates" the sinner?

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Interesting. Reconciling the wrath, anger, and hatred of God; with His love, kindness, mercy, and grace.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:04 PM
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A just, holy, righteous God cannot stand sin in His presence; a sinner is someone who is covered in sin, and actively rejecting the ultimate sacrifice of His only Son, Jesus Christ. How could anyone love a person that refused to accept your sacrifice of a child?

This all ties in with the classic nonsense "God doesn't change anything." It's abundantly clear that God does change His mind, among other things, though His character and qualities are always the same. In essence, God is planning on putting a detestable sinner in Hell because He is righteous and cannot abide sin, and the sinner is actively refusing His incredible gift. However, when that person accepts Christ as His Saviour, He changes His mind from putting that person in Hell, to accepting Him in the beloved.

God is not like us; the only human that ever hated someone without sinning was David (Ps. 139:22). Jesus clearly said that if we hate someone, we're guilty of murder already. Therefore it is not our job to hate anyone, but God can do that and still be righteous and just and Holy.
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:40 PM
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A just, holy, righteous God cannot stand sin in His presence; a sinner is someone who is covered in sin, and actively rejecting the ultimate sacrifice of His only Son, Jesus Christ. How could anyone love a person that refused to accept your sacrifice of a child?

This all ties in with the classic nonsense "God doesn't change anything." It's abundantly clear that God does change His mind, among other things, though His character and qualities are always the same. In essence, God is planning on putting a detestable sinner in Hell because He is righteous and cannot abide sin, and the sinner is actively refusing His incredible gift. However, when that person accepts Christ as His Saviour, He changes His mind from putting that person in Hell, to accepting Him in the beloved.

God is not like us; the only human that ever hated someone without sinning was David (Ps. 139:22). Jesus clearly said that if we hate someone, we're guilty of murder already. Therefore it is not our job to hate anyone, but God can do that and still be righteous and just and Holy.
I am sorry, can you clarify what you mean by David being the only human who ever hated without sin was David....I am not passing a verdict on whether you are right or wrong, I would like to see where you are coming from with that......Blessings.
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Old 10-31-2008, 02:42 PM
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Personally, I think this topic is as stupid as calvinism (sorry TA).

There are two OT verses which say God hates those that do iniquity, and those who loveth violence.

Why is it that we start applying these two OT verses to the age of Grace?

Incidentally, BEFORE Calvary, God still loved us enough, when we were yet sinners, that He died for us. God showed His love for us on the cross, and He still shows it everyday in His long suffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To take two verse from the Psalms

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And say "God hates sinners" is to be guilty of prooftexting.

The only one that says specifically that God hates sinners is Psalm 5:5 - and Psalm 5:4 says that wickedness shall not dwell with Him, And here in verse five, it says the foolish shall not stand in thy sight. Verse 6 says He shall destroy them. Now, to me, this is speaking of a great day of judgment, where sinners stand before God - in that Day, God's righteous anger and hatred will condemn those wicked fools who rejected Christ and did not have his imputed righteousness to everlasting flame.


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Those last verses should settle it for us. They are clear - they are all referring to what God did on the cross in demonstrating His love (Romans 5:8 is another I think I left out). This was while we were yet sinners - God showed his love toward us NOW, while we were yet sinners living in sin.

Sorry AM, I don't mean to make this reply in order to upset you, but I have seen it a lot recently, so it's really a reply to everyone. Like Holiness/Pentecostal want to make sure everybody knows they can lose their salvation, it seems some IFB's want everyone to know God hates them.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:11 PM
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Luke,


This is a very good post my friend. I'm glad God loved me when I was a sinner and saved my soul from hell. If you are saved you are saved because God loves you and gave his son for you. This is real love. Then he sent the holy ghost to convict you of your sin and impress you to accept salvation. With out God's love for sinners no one would ever get saved. This is why he sent his son was to die for and save sinners.

When it all comes down to the real deal it's very simple. Without God's love we would all go to hell. He loved us, died for us and saved our unworthy souls from hell. I find the question dose God hate sinners a very foolish question.

The real question should be. Dose God love sinners? Yes he dose, I know, I'm a very unworthy saved sinner. I'm unworthy of his love, death, and salvation. Yet he gave me this free gift because of his perfect love for me. For this I am very grateful.


Atlas

Last edited by atlas; 10-31-2008 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 10-31-2008, 04:41 PM
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Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Brother Luke, I agree. There is absolutely no doubt our Heavenly Father loved us first. He gave and He provided a gift that is totally undeserved and unmerited.

It seems to me, however, as we read Psalm 5 very carefully, we can conclude that God still "hatest all workers of iniquity". The question is who are the wicked, evil, foolish workers of iniquity? They are haters who despise and reject God.

Specifically, these are the ones God is said to hate. I think the emphasis in these two verses clarifies that "evil will not dwell with God" and "the foolish will not stand in God's sight" and He hates the workers of iniquity.

They will not "dwell" with God or "stand in His sight" and be "hated as workers of iniquity" by God, because they rejected Him. This holds true for all men. The good news, as you pointed out, we have no fear of God's wrath because we have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalms 5:4-5 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
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Old 11-07-2008, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by aussiemama View Post
It seems that there are passages in the Bible that teach that God hates sinners. I don't like that idea, but it appears to be Biblical. My whole life I had heard that "God hates the sin, not the sinner" but somewhere in Psalms it says that God hates sinners. What is the truth on this matter?

G'Day aussiemama.

To answer your question: There is NO such verse as that! It is often mentioned and tossed about---usually by evangelists or preachers who are trying to get folks to "Make a decision or a profession" to believe in Jesus Christ,,,BUT without the need for repentance.... { in other words: It is trying to tell folks that Jesus is their good friend and wants to be your pal/buddy/"mate"... versus the Biblical message which is that: All haved sinned--- But there is a Hope, a Remedy, A Saviour---> Christ Jesus died for sinners. He is NOT "our good buddy in the sky". Wrong views of The Lord often (always!) lead to wrong thinking about sin and salvation, and the need of a Saviour.

Another one that often is heard/said/told is: "God helps them that help themselves." That is not Bible, but is rather from the writings of one of America's Founding Fathers-- Benjamin Franklin. A smart man in many areas, but not a Theologian.

Another that is used quite often by some Christians is not a Bible verse, but is actually a line from a Campus Crusade Tract: "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life." { Which is almost like the title of a book that the J.W.'s ( The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society) pass out/sell....}.

The easiest way to check out whether something is actually in The Book is to open up a Concordance and look for one or more words of the sentence/verse that you recall hearing or reading and start looking/comparing.

... I did this many moons ago when I went to a Pastor at a Church I had been invited to ( He had preached a sermon about believers having Faith) and I went up to him after the service and told him: "I can't find it right now (using the Index of my Collins Bible) , but I'm sure that [I gave the Ben Franklin quote] is in the Bible". He graciously smiled at me and challenged me to go home and "keep looking for it"... Well, 30 some years later and 2 Concordances and nearly 6 Bibles,,, still haven't found that "verse"---

Aussiemama--- I don't know if you are a baby Christian, or a Child/Teen/Adult/Senior in your Christian walk... Not meant to be insulting, I just don't know. Therefore please accept this advice (No charge/No Tip) as I think it will help you understand the "Basic Plan" for all humans... by The Lord God Almighty. If more Christians would read the book from cover to cover, they would see "The Big Picture". Too often people read a "Devotional Verse" for the day... without ever reading the whole context of the chapter, and the section of the Scripture that the one verse came from.

If you want to know what God our Creator says about Sin and sinners, I would urge you to start with Genesis 1:1 , and go to the end of Exodus. Then turn over to the Epistle to the Romans in the New Testament and start with chapter 1 verse 1, and read to the end of Romans.

...I'll give you a hint: Adam and Eve got us in Big Trouble with a Holy, Just, and Righteous God... but that very same God is all-knowing and ... Now you'll have to read the rest to see "The Plan"... Then let us know what you find as you travel Canaan, and the Sinai campgrounds, then over to the big city on the Italian "boot", and think back to the early Christians who were trying to live in a ungodly city. "Take up and Read!" Bye-for-now.
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:06 AM
aussiemama
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I'm 23 and grew up in Church (all different kinds) and just got saved earlier this year. I am currently reading through the Bible. I don't get anything out of reading just a verse or two really.
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:51 PM
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I'm 23 and grew up in Church (all different kinds) and just got saved earlier this year. I am currently reading through the Bible. I don't get anything out of reading just a verse or two really.
Aussiemama, as a young Christian, you have just begun your walk with Christ and you’ll have many questions along life’s journey. Some, I might add, may never be answered. I’ve been a Christian now for nearly 30 years and have a lot of questions that I still do not have answers for. Brother George, (who also participates in this Forum) has been saved for 50 years and he still has questions about certain passages.

Above all else, I want to encourage you to purpose and resolve in your heart to know and love Jesus Christ. Do not “leave” your first love. It is the will of God the Father, that Jesus Christ [God the Son] be first in all things. That He has the preeminence in all things and that all fullness dwells in Him. Whatever you do in the Christian life, little sister, do this one thing—love and know Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:18-19 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
You have asked a difficult question. As you see, there are different answers provided by true fellow believers who love Jesus Christ. You’ll get that your entire Christian life. Although we should seek, and value, the counsel and instruction of others, ultimately, we must understand we are just as capable of understanding God’s word, because we also have the Holy Spirit abiding in us. So I want to encourage you to always remain humble, teachable, and trust God to open your eyes of spiritual understanding through His word.

Regarding your question, our human mind and human reasoning will prevent us from reconciling the “hatred” of God with the “love” of God. This is a doctrine that we must believe and accept because the word of God teaches both aspects of God’s nature. In other words, I encourage you to live the Christian life the same way you entered the Christian life—by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
As born again believers, we have received the forgiveness of sin and the tender mercies of God, we have been delivered from the condemnation and wrath of God, we were once the enemies of God, but have been reconciled with Him by grace through faith in Christ. Because of these undeserved blessings and gifts of God, it is very difficult for us to believe that the Holy Scriptures clearly teach God hates the workers of iniquity, the wicked, and him that loveth violence. But they do.
Psalms 5:4-6 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psalms 11:4-7 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Scripture also clearly teaches us that God loves “sinners” and has a wonderful plan for their life. I actually trusted the Lord Jesus Christ in college in 1979, through the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. Who taught that God loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. What love and what a plan for my life!

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. What love and what a plan for my life!

Romans 5:8-10 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. What love and what a plan for my life!

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. What love and what a plan for my life!

Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. What love and what a plan for my life!
So in scripture we see both God’s righteous hate, and God’s righteous love. (Brother Parrish did a good job explaining this.)
 

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