Doctrine Discussion about matters of the faith.

 
 
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  #1  
Old 03-04-2008, 06:39 PM
Pastor Mikie
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Default The Church with no power

Something that has plagued the church throughout its history is being dead or dying. There were times when the church was alive with power, and other times when it was nothing more than a religious gathering.

People are looking for more than philosophies and hype. The want the "real-deal". They want to have more than religion. They want something that is life-changing.

I've tried to get into discussions in different threads and forums and it seems when it is discovered I'm a Pentecostal, I get "pounced on" by those who do not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit being active today. I'm going to put a Scripture out there and let anyone who desires comment on it. I'm sure there will be plenty said. I personally believe those who don't believe that the gifts are active in this dispensation are still my brother and sister if they have believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
  #2  
Old 03-04-2008, 06:40 PM
Pastor Mikie
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BTW: I'm not implying this Scripture applies to non-pentecostals.
  #3  
Old 03-04-2008, 08:29 PM
jerry
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That verse is referring to lost religious people - having a form of salvation, but no real power behind it. Truly saved people have the power of the Holy Spirit working within them.
  #4  
Old 03-04-2008, 10:26 PM
jblm1611
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Default Losing the real maening

Pastor Mikie,
When one who comes on this forum and people find out what church they go to whether it's baptist, pentecostal, catholic, methodist, nazarene, etc. Though most here believe the KJV to be the infalliable Word of God, we might judge one to be wrong for what they believe. Yes there are things that I do take a stand for according to the Word. Do I know it all, no. But for me to get caught up defending the KJV, I and we can lose sight on the real message and that is to please God and win souls for Christ. No matter how hard I try to understand somethings in God's Word. I will never arrive and know it all. All I can ask is the Holy Spirit just show me a little more than I had yesterday. This forum here, I can stand up for the things I believe in, but I can also learn to, if I keep a teachable spirit.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

God Bless,
James
  #5  
Old 03-05-2008, 08:05 AM
Pastor Mikie
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I'm hoping to get a discussion going, because the verse, to me, has to do with people with "less-than-pure" motives getting into the church and draining the life out of people. Even though I'm a Pentecostal, it sickens me to walk into a church, see people give others a feigned "God Bless You", speak perfect "christinanese", howler, jump up and down, act all spiritual, quote some Bible verses, then, when they leave the building, stand outside the door and gossip, act all cute and flirty (to varying degrees), have no idea what the sermon was about, act mean as a snake.....you know what I''m talking about.

There have been times I've just wanted to stay home and not bother with church at all. But then I come to my senses. I realize I can stay home and be all critical and angry. Or, go to church with the mind-set of giving (like my wife says, "live to give") and not just receiving. I desire to be part of the solution.

The sad fact is, in all my years as an itinerate preacher, the majority of churches we've ministered in were cold, dead and religious gatherings (just playing church).

Prayer and a move of God is the ultimate answer, but, what about our part?

Last edited by Pastor Mikie; 03-05-2008 at 08:09 AM.
  #6  
Old 03-05-2008, 08:09 AM
jerry
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We need to make sure we ourselves are not personally guilty of going through the motions - and if so, get it right.

When others see the Holy Spirit at work in and through us, they will be encouraged and exhorted to also have a genuine walk with the Lord. When they see us with our plastic smiles and outward show, it just reassures them that they can also go through the motions and be okay (in their own minds, though of course not with God).
  #7  
Old 03-05-2008, 03:47 PM
mgc1952
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Hi Mike,

I think the verse in question deals with the fact that there will be some who will look godly, but they have not let the power of God truly work in bringing them to repentance and truly let the power of the gospel change them from who they were.

That is why there are dead and dying churches. They have bought into an easy believism. Since so much of the church can look like the world today they think that salvation does not cost them a true change.

When the apostles became followers of Jesus it cost them something. It cost them their jobs. It cost them who they had been as Jesus began to work on them in the areas of their character.

The power of the gospel, its agent in our lives is the Holy Ghost. If we don't let the Holy Ghost work on us we will only have the outward form. The power of God, the power of Jesus is the Holy Spirit at work in us, empowering us for change as long as we are willing to change.

I'm a fellow pentecostal, but to tell you the truth I have gotten tired of the labels. If somebody asks me what I am I say a Christian. And I didn't say that as a put down. I am just (a preacher disabled and on the sidelines for now) tired of the labels.

God bless to all,

Mark
  #8  
Old 03-05-2008, 05:48 PM
Pastor Mikie
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Welcome MGC1952. I see you are new here.

I don't like the labels either. I pastored a Souther Baptist church (interim) for 16 months before anyone but the board knew I was a Pentecostal. I told the board before they asked me to become their Pastor, but they didn't care. It never really was an issue until the former pastor found out. He and I were friends until he found out I was Pentecostal. Then he treated me like I had the plague. I thought that was a little hypocritical of him since he had become an alcoholic. The reason it wasn't a problem with the board was because neither my wife nor I made an issue of it. We were there to Preach Jesus Christ. If anyone asked me, though, I told them the truth. It was what I considered to be a "deacon possessed church" and it was dying because of it. Even the SBC knew I was Pentecostal and they weren't concerned.

Before that, I Pastored an Assembly of God church (interim) and it was in the same condition: a possessive board.

I've found that people are people no matter what label they have. Our behaviour is, unfortunately, how the world judges Christianity. The Lord is truly good, but not all those who claim to be His are. That is a challenge.
  #9  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:38 AM
fundy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie View Post
Welcome MGC1952. I see you are new here.

I don't like the labels either. I pastored a Souther Baptist church (interim) for 16 months before anyone but the board knew I was a Pentecostal. I told the board before they asked me to become their Pastor, but they didn't care. It never really was an issue until the former pastor found out. He and I were friends until he found out I was Pentecostal. Then he treated me like I had the plague. I thought that was a little hypocritical of him since he had become an alcoholic. The reason it wasn't a problem with the board was because neither my wife nor I made an issue of it. We were there to Preach Jesus Christ. If anyone asked me, though, I told them the truth. It was what I considered to be a "deacon possessed church" and it was dying because of it. Even the SBC knew I was Pentecostal and they weren't concerned.

Before that, I Pastored an Assembly of God church (interim) and it was in the same condition: a possessive board.

I've found that people are people no matter what label they have. Our behaviour is, unfortunately, how the world judges Christianity. The Lord is truly good, but not all those who claim to be His are. That is a challenge.
Hi Pastor Mikie,

Ok, I am going to make an observation here, but I want to assure you I am not attacking you personally. I wish to make this observation from a doctrinal point of view only.

My observation is this, I find it amazing that a southern Baptist congregation could sit and listen to a pentacostal preacher for 16 months and not notice.

In my opinion,this church was dying because;

a) the congregation was so lacking in doctrinal foundation that they couldnt tell a Pentacostal from a Baptist.

b) None of the deacons were well founded enough to pastor the flock until a new shepherd was found, and seemingly, were prepared to compromise for the sake of expedience.

I am not setting out to be offensive here, just pointing out the fact that Pentacostals and Baptists have very different doctrinal viewpoints in some areas, differences that would be patently obvious to any member of our independent Baptist church.

As for the disdaining of "labels"...that viewpoint is a little too ecumenical for my liking.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Simply by obeying the above command, we are going to be labelled.


Fundy
  #10  
Old 03-06-2008, 07:43 AM
Pastor Mikie
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The differences between what I believe and most Baptist churches were minute. As for labels, I'm not trying to be ecumenical. I hold that there are fundamental ("critical" or "essential") doctrines then there are other doctrines that are not essential to salvation. The ones that are essential:

1. The Bible is a Christian’s final authority. Without this fact being established, it all becomes a matter of opinion. God doesn’t have “opinions”.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2. We are all sinners
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

3. God Himself provided a way for us to get saved from sin and saved from judgment
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

4. And we can have assurance of being saved
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

5. It's the blood of Jesus Christ that washes away our sins
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood...

6. Because of this, we will be with Jesus forever
John 14:3 (Jesus speaking) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

7. Because of what Jesus did, we miss Hell
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

8. There is only one way to Heaven
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is worth contending for. Not just to be accurate, but to win those who are on their way to Hell. Remember:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm supposing you're referring to the doctrines of eternal security and gifts of the Spirit. Knowing how Baptists believe (I used to be a Baptist), I didn't think it was necessary (while pastoring the SBC church) to aggravate a person just to be right about my point of view. I wanted to convince them of the truth, not just prove myself right. I never did hide it, it just didn't seem necessary to be obnoxious about it. If I was going to aggravate someone, it would be concerning the fundamentals I mentioned above and calling sin sin.

As for eternal security, I believe closer to what Baptists believe. My contention is nobody has to be saved if they don't want to be. A "debate" I had with an atheist, the atheist said he used to be a born again Christian, attended Bible college and was a Christian for many years (and he believed all the essential doctrines and did evangelistic work) until his tour in the navy supposedly "opened his eyes to the truth" and he stopped believing in God. To say he is still saved would be a problem since he no longer believes there is a God. And, to say he was never saved in the first place, that would be closer to Roman Catholic doctrine. He said he repented of his sins, prayed to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. If he wasn't saved in the first place, how do we know that? If we were to have met him before he became an atheist, we would have called him our brother in Christ.

So, you see, it is those two areas of contention that are the differences between me as a Pentecostal and most Baptists (I say most because of the doctrine of predestination is held by some Baptists and I believe the predestination is for Christians as described in the following verses:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will...


...and NOT that some are ordained to be saved and other are not).

In this thread, I'm trying to get away from arguing about the gifts of the Spirit because it isn't getting anywhere. Where churches are dying is their replacing God's Word with a counterfeit.

Last edited by Pastor Mikie; 03-06-2008 at 07:51 AM.
 

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