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#41
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I'm with those advocating a final update by a group of church-appointed Spirit-led born-again scholars. (Final because I am very sure we are in the very last of the last days and there is probably not even time for such a project, but if there is time then it should be done.) Why do I think it would be any different? Because it hasn't yet been done. All that has been done is the false versions. Yes, I guess it's my "intuition," my Spirit-led intuition. Too bad we all claim this kind of leading and yet disagree. Quote:
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Last edited by Connie; 05-16-2008 at 06:40 PM. Reason: grammar problems |
#42
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Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
I may at times be mistaken in my "discernment", "understanding" and "wisdom" when it comes to my judgment in these matters - and if I am, God will see to it that I am "chastened"; but I am not going to shrink from my duty to "warn"; "admonish"; and "REPROVE"; and, even when the occasion requires, "REBUKE" a "proud", "vain", and "offensive" person who hurls insults at a Christian without regard for What God's word has to say or even what common courtesy would require. Bro. George, As always, one can count on you to respond in a way that many would shrink from, in order to refrain from judging others! |
#43
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It is certainly true that there needs to be a final form of the King James Bible, but it is by receiving from tradition, that is, what has been afforded to us by the providence of God, rather than looking to yet raise up another “standard”. It is clear that the Spirit of God is not leading toward creating yet another update to the King James Bible. Rather, it is that people must take up what is, and read. They must turn back to the old paths, restore themselves to the present foundation, “All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.” (Isaiah 18:3). It is propaganda of the enemy that English words are being lost, or that meanings have altered so much as if the Spirit of God cannot teach people what words ending in “-eth” mean. Such usage should be retained because it is both accurate and God-honoured. No Bible English words or meanings are actually lost anyway. Now, I am well aware of the idea that some have about how God should do new things, or that people must progress forward, but this never means forsaking the foundation, nor does it mean going into the “spirit” to the abandonment of the Word. Such feeling-oriented “Christianity” is not leading into the truth. The true power of the Spirit is to have the Word and to show forth, by the Church, the things of the Word. |
#44
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Last edited by Connie; 05-17-2008 at 12:30 AM. |
#45
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A Man With One Watch Knows What Time It Is; A Man With Two Is Never Quite Sure
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• I do not believe all Bibles are equal • Therefore, some Bibles are better than others • The King James Authorized Bible is at LEAST the Best English Version of the Word of God • The King James Authorized Bible was NOT given by inspiration but was given by divine providence • The English of our King James Authorized Bible cannot correct the Greek or Hebrew for it comes from Greek and Hebrew • Therefore, English is not superior to Greek, Hebrew, and/or any other language in EVERY way • It is not the Greek or Hebrew words or Mss. that contain them that are the problem, but rather man’s understanding of those Greek and Hebrew words • Presenting the King James Only position MUST be done in love, with meekness and grace • Every person must come to this conclusion for themselves and have the right to disagree What ever the case, are the parameters that I originally posted correct or not and why (by your standards)? In this debate (i.e. the Bible Version Debate), we should be fighting side-by-side for the use of and belief in the King James Authorized Bible as the Standard as far as English speaking peoples go. You and I both agree that having a standard is Biblically conducive. Please correct me if I am wrong. And for those of you who disagree, I will post my argument now. A Firm Foundation—Certainty, Authority, and Standard: The Biblical Argument For Having A Standard Bible! Quote:
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The Need For Authority The need for an authoritative standard appears to be a need recognized by all. For example, the court system has a “Supreme Court”, machine shops have a standard by which to calibrate their tools each year, Occults have their ritual documents upon which to exactly conduct their insidious incantations and sinister summoning, etc.. But, what about the Christian? Where is the Christian‘s authority? In the Bible of course! However, of which Version? There are several you know? Modern scholarship would have us to believe that after God had inspired a text(s) that it somehow fell away and that for some 1500 years the Church (God‘s people) used corrupt manuscripts, and thus, we are in the process of finding those original words. Hence, by Modern scholarship we Christians have no authority in the Bible but in what some scholar thinks the best reading is. Yet, this is contrary to Scriptural testimony (Is. 40:8; 1Peter 1:24-25; Matt. 5:18; Luke 16:17; 21:33). The disquieting fact that so painfully lies heavy on the back of our time, is that the Church has lucratively and effectively given an answer and contended all the major doctrines in the Bible, and yet, the Bible seems to be just an idea or mirage that looks good from a distance but is disappearing when searched for. Having, distinctively detailed what a Christian is to believe, the question is, “What was used to define it?” You bellow a verbally articulated pronounced statement of reply, “THE BIBLE!” I ask, “But, which one?” Their Can Be Only One It has been claimed that, to make one particular Version the standard, is somehow “pinning God down.” Those who believe this think that it is wrong and usually tout, “show me one verse that says to use that one version.” I respond, show me a verse (just one) that prohibits me from “pinning” God down to just one version! I will let you in on a secret; the Bible does not give any of these prohibiting verses. In reality, this kind of argumentation is null and void, because it is not properly addressing what the Bible addresses. Of course the Bible doesn’t name any one Version as the final rule; it doesn’t name any Version at all. What the Bible does do is, lend to the belief in ONE Version. Take as a case in point, note that the true prophets of God spake with one mouth (1Kings 22:13; Luke 1:70; Acts 3:18; Rev. 11:3, 5). Notice, the prophets are plural but speak with ONE mouth (singular). In contrast to this, the wicked, the unruly, the vain talkers, the deceivers, even the idols made by their hands, speak with mouths (plural) (Ps. 22:13; 78:30; Jer. 44:25; Lam. 3:46; Titus 1:10-11). Does, this not indicate that singularity is to be preferred over the many? Those who cry about “pinning God down” to one Version, are simply spewing forth that which is not Biblically existent, rather it is spawned from a couple of fundamental questions. “Why be limited to any one Bible exclusively?” or “Why believe in any onlyism?” The facts are just as fundamental. Does not the Bible teach and do we not believe: • In ONLY one true God (2Sam. 7:22; 1Chron. 17:20; Malichi 2:10; Mark 12:32). • In ONLY one way to the Father (John 14:6). • In ONLY one Master (Matt. 6:24; 23:8,10). • In ONLY one door to be saved (John 10:9). • In ONLY one name that Salvation is in (Acts 4:12). • In ONLY one prefect sacrifice for sin (Heb. 9:11-14). • In ONLY one beginning (as of time) (Gen. 1:1; John 1:1). • In ONLY one Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) (Rom. 12:5; Coloss. 1:18, 24; 1Cor. 12:27-28). • In ONLY one marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 9:7-9). • In ONLY one manner of law (Ex. 12:49; Lev. 7:7; 24:22; Num. 15:16, 29). • In ONLY one tabernacle (Ex. 26:6). Then, why not in ONLY one Bible? Did not God originally author ONLY one Bible? God did not author two versions of Genesis or two renderings of the letter to the Romans! Why would He do it now? The Bible goes on to testify that we are to speak the same thing that we be not divided (1Cor. 1:10) and that we walk by the same rule and mind the same thing (Phil. 3:16). How can we do this when we have conflicting authorities? In like manner we must not forget the Biblical conflict between the one true God and the many false gods. The one true God does not contradict nor is He the author of confusion, but the many gods are. I want to clarify if I could as to what I really mean. When I talk about pinning God down or limiting Him to only one Bible what do I really mean? Do I mean to convey that the King James Bible should use as the standard of authority for all people every where (weather English speaking or not)? By no means at all! When I speak of God’s word being found in one standard, what I mean is that the King James Authorized Bible is the only real standard for the English speaking peoples. That God’s providentially preserved word; that has been faithfully handed down from the first through the ages, has been providently kept intact in the Biblical English of the King James Bible. The Conflict To give you the idea here, take a look at each of these verse comparisons in both the KJV and the NIV. In (Psa. 10:4-5) is the wicked’s ways always grievous or prosperous? In (Prov. 25:23) does the north wind drive away the rain or bring it? In (Prov. 26:22) are the words of a talebearer wounds or choice morsels? In (Is. 9:3) did God increase the joy or not? In (Jer. 51:3) is the archer to bend his bow or not? In (Jer. 27:1) was it the reign of Jehoiakim or Zedekiah? In (Hos. 11:12) does Judah yet rule with God or is Judah unruly against God? In (Matt.18:22) do we forgive our brother 70 X 7 or 77 times? In (Matt. 27:34) was Jesus given vinegar or wine? In (John 9:4) how must do the work, “I” (Jesus) or “we” (Jesus & His disciples)? In (Acts 6:8) was Stephen full of faith or grace? In (Eph. 5:9) is it fruit of the Spirit or light? In (Col. 2:18) is it things which he hath not seen or about what he has seen? In (Rev. 19:17) is it a Great God or a great supper? Which is right? Both cannot be! Which shall you chooses? The examples above are just a representative portion for there are hundreds even thousands more which could have been cited. Now, let me take this a step further. Examine these 16 verses in the NIV: (Matt. 17:21), (Matt. 18:11), (Matt. 23:14), (Mark 7:16), (Mark 9:44), (Mark 9:46), (Mark 11:26), (Mark 15:28), (Luke 17:36), (Luke 23:17), (John 5:4), (Acts 8:37), (Acts 8:37), (Acts 24:7), (Acts 28:29), (Rom. 1624). Are you having trouble yet? If you are, the reason is, that these verses are not present in the text of the NIV. They may be in a foot note but not in the text itself. The question here is this, do these verses belong in the Bible or not? Additionally, lets examine one last group of verse comparisons. Please view these 11 verses: (Matt. 13:51), (Mark 9:24), (Luke 7:31), (Luke 9:57), (Luke 22:31), (Luke 23:42), (1Cor. 15:47), (2Cor. 4:10), (Gal. 6:17), (2Tim. 4:1), (Titus 1:4). Is Jesus Lord in these verses or not? Do you not see why we need a standard? A great book illustrating these and more is “Evaluating Versions of the New Testament ” by Everett W. Fowler. Thought, he only focuses on the N.T. he does an awesome job at explaining the why in a simple manner. This does not mean that other Versions cannot be referred to, howbeit, only in a secondary sense. Nor does it mean that others cannot use a Bible other than the KJAB, for that is a persons personal preference. Although, there are certain questions that we must deal with: “Which Bible should be used as the standard?”, “Which Bible should we use for preaching, teaching, and all areas of controversy?”, “What problems exist if a standard is not kept?”, “Why do you used the Bible you use?”, “What are the reasons and are they reasonable?”. Most importantly we must ask, “Is it Biblically conducive?” Having only one standard indubitably is! The Implications The issues faced here are imperative as well as controversial. It is imperative, because of the implication of its most basic Idea, “Does God‘s authoritative Word exist to day?” Think of the implications! What if it doesn‘t? The very book that influenced not only nations but the English language as we know it; and that has touch and change countless lives. Not to mention the blood of enumerable believers who gave their lives to the propagation of it! Yes, the book that is the very breath and Spirit of God! If it be not in existence today, then the Bible is nothing more than a vain Script that means nothing and the faith of those proceeding us was futile. Probably the most devastating problem of it all, is that our faith in the Holy Writ would be bootless, our salvation nonexistent, and we would be hopelessly lost in trespasses and sin. It is controversial, in that, it involves the very foundation of what we as Christians stand on. The Authoritative Word of God! And that’s just it, for the Christian the Bible is authoritative. It is the finale authority for faith, life and practice. However, the question emerges which demands and almost pesters a clear answer: “Which Bible do you mean?” A little over a century ago this would have been no problem, for the answer was evident: “The standard is the Authorized Version!”; one empire of all controversy to stand as the supreme standard for the faith. Of which it did, by the providence of God, for some 300 years; although, today numerous new Bibles are challenging this standard and persisting for a place of recognition and prominence as valid and more accurate specimens. So, which Version should be the standard? Would God allow one type of Version to reign as the Standard English Bible only to change it latter? That is what we must answer. Maximum Certainty The whole issue comes down to having maximum certainty as opposed to maximum uncertainty. If God’s word was not preserved in its entirety, then what certainty can we have of it? How do we know which reading is the acceptable one and which is the unacceptable one? God wants us to have as much certainty as possible as to what He has spoken. For example, again, Jesus told us that man cannot live by bread only, but by every word of God. How pray-tell can mankind in general, in all ages, be responsible for living by EVERY word if it be not preserved? If man has no certainty as to what God’s word specifically says, he cannot . In fact both the Old & New Testaments express the desire that we are to have a knowledge of certainty concerning His word. We are to know, that is to say, have a knowledge (Prov. 1:23; Hosea 6:3). How can we know anything if we have no certainty as to what God’s word says? Jesus was emphatic, that if we continue in His word we shall KNOW the truth (John 8:31-32). How could Jesus be so certain, unless His word was just as certain? Furthermore, the words of Christ are so important that we will be judged by them if we do not heed them (John 12:47-48; Duet. 18:18-19). So, we must be very certain as to what those words say. The apostle Paul tells us that we are to rightly divide the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15). Again, how can we rightly divide that which is uncertain? Accordingly we read, “For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.” (Ps. 119:89). If it is settled in heaven, ought it to be settled in earth also? Do we not pray that the will in heaven be done on earth (Matt. 6:10; Luke 11:2)? Not that earth is heaven, but that heaven leaves or better yet leads the example as to how earth ought to have been and yet be. The Bible says, “Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?” (Proverbs 22:20-21). See also (Luke 1:4). We are to have confidence, assurance, and maximum certainty that God‘s authoritative Word does exist today so we can love it and have great peace (Ps. 119:165). Seeing as God has taken care of His Word, how much more does He take care of us (1Peter 1:5; 4:19). __________________________________ - “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions” - “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31) - “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii) |
#46
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PART ONE
What are the pure words of God in Hebrew and Greek? Where is the extant copy or volume of the book which today may be considered “equal” to the King James Bible? The truth is that there is no sure and certain Hebrew or Greek manuscript or edition today, and that none, as good as they are, may be considered to be perfect in regards to the finality and exactness of their text, or their completeness, as being totally free from any tiny mistake or variation. This also can be argued in regards to any Bible Version. What is needful is to have one final Version for the world. “For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.” (Isaiah 28:11). This means that the truth would not come to the Jews in Hebrew. Nor is it merely meaning the NT Greek, because the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled “And so all Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26a). Therefore, it must be yet at hand. Furthermore, we see that God promised, “ For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” (Zephaniah 3:9). That pure language must be Bible English, as English is being installed as the world language, and it is a language which many Jews know already. Since we have the best Bible in the world, and since English is everywhere, God by His providence is indicating that English preaching of the King James Bible is the way to go. In fact, it is what was promised that should be. “All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.” (Isaiah 18:3). This is not merely meaning St George’s Cross or something, but that there should be one standard Word, by which the Gospel is preached to the world. There is ONE Bible for the Church, the Jews and to the world. PART TWO If there is one standard Bible, the King James Bible, which form or presentation of it should be considered, accepted and made standard? After all, any may differ in the jots and tittles one from another, so by what measure is one called “unacceptable” and another “correct”? In short, what is the actual edition of the King James Bible that is being conformed to, or the useful rule and measure? Or can any edition be equally, or as equally providentially supplied as another, so that one has “he” and one has “she”, and there is no certainty whether both are correct, or which is correct. “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.” (Isaiah 34:16). No word concerning the promise should fail in the book. Every word should be correct in its place. And just as God gathers the birds because he promised to do so, He has also gathered the words, to every one her correct jots and tittles, as answering to the Heavenly Volume. Thus, there must be an exact presentation of the King James Bible on Earth, just as God does not have different “equally valid” editions of the Volume in Heaven. Granted that while God might have one master copy in the Heavenly Tabernacle, there should be an answerable perfect similitude in the spiritual tabernacle, by which I mean the Church (at least with a reserved remnant of it today), by which I mean one edition held as common and standard for its purity and exactness. |
#47
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#48
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I haven't seen the Bible used to support the views of my opponents, Diligent, or at least not used relevantly -- much scripture is quoted here that doesn't really support the point but simply expresses the poster's opinion. A poster calls another poster a fool and quotes a long list of scripture that describes fools as if that proves his point, though all it is really is a misuse of scripture to call the poster names. Bibleprotector quoted Isaiah 18:13 in support of his view of the finalized KJB, but you have to already share his understanding of that scripture to accept that it supports his point, and to accept that really stretches its meaning it seems to me.
Where in scripture are the problems of translation addressed? Shall I produce all the scriptures that describe born-again Christians as the priesthood of believers, as able to judge all things through the Holy Spirit, and so on? Last edited by Connie; 05-17-2008 at 01:52 PM. |
#49
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Christians have the Holy Spirit, and that is how we are to judge things that do not have direct Biblical support and THAT in itself is a Biblical position and it's the one I have been taking in my posts above. Last edited by Connie; 05-17-2008 at 02:04 PM. |
#50
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Koine Greek was the common, spoken language of NT times. Shakesperean English was spoken, conversational English. The use of colloquialisms throughout demonstrate the conversational nature of the English All throughout history, the Bible has been and was always intended to be translated in the common language of the people. Neh 8.9 Even the KJV translators clearly noted that they attempted to use "marketplace" language, the same as found in NT times. "Therefore the word of God, being set forth in Greek, becometh hereby like a candle set upon a candlestick, which giveth light to all that are in the house; or like a proclamation sounded forth in the market-place, which most men presently take knowledge of; and therefore that language was fittest to contain the Scriptures," |
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