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#51
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Brother Chette,
I may have wrongly said Moses "returning", but I also said that Moses and Elijah are only two people mentioned in the context of Malachi's prophecy, and therefore "associated" with the Second Coming. Brother George has some good points, and a good question would be: "Will the Jews ever listen to Enoch?" I'm sure they would certainly listen to Moses. Elijah, of course, will return. |
#52
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Re: "The Two Witnesses"
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It's a real pleasure discussing this issue with you (a pleasant change). IF Moses and Elijah have "glorified" bodies like the kind of "glorified" bodies that we are going to receive at the "translation" of the body of Christ they will NOT be able to die; and so they could NOT be the "two witnesses". Quote:
When the Lord Jesus Christ "appears" - "we shall all be changed"; we all are going to "be raised in incorruption"; we all are going to "put on incorruption"; as we all "have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly"; and we all "must put on immortality". In other words - "we shall be like Him"! Quote:
The Scriptures do not state that Moses and Elijah had "glorified" bodies when they met with the Lord Jesus Christ on the mount of "transfiguration". But there seems to be near unanimity that Elijah will be one of the "two witnesses", if that is the case (as I believe), then Elijah CAN NOT have a "glorified" body (such as the one that we are going to receive), because if he does, he is "immortal" and will not be able to die. So - if it is possible that the one "witness" is Elijah, I see nothing that could "prevent" the second "witness" from being Moses. Whatever kind of "BODIES" they now possess, it seems pretty clear that they both "possess" the "SAME" kind of body. 1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. |
#53
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Brother Chette and Brother George,
I may be alone in this way of thinking; but Moses and Elijah not having glorified bodies in the Tribulation period would pose no problem if we accept (as far as I am concerned) the following: 1. Only the members of the Church, which is the Body of Christ, will be resurrected and raptured. 2. The Old Testament saints, as well as the Twelve, will have their "FIRST RESURRECTION" in Revelation 20 (verses 4-6, "THIS IS the first resurrection"). |
#54
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Grace and peace Tony |
#55
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George and Sammy,
well Jesus had a glorified body too in Luke's version of the Transfiguration. but that glory was short lived as it well could be for Elijah and Moses. Appeared in glory could be a place not just a state of being. Interesting to note In Luke 3 in the genealogy of Jesus Enoch is mentioned also in Jude and in Hebrews. So these scripture is directly linking the Hebrew peoples to Enoch and Seth and then to Adam. An interesting side note is that only the Jewish people can follow their genealogy back to Adam. Not one Gentile can follow his back to Jephath or Ham to Adam. I am assuming here but the importance of Enoch to list him in genealogy of Christ, to mention him in the Hall of faith in Hebrews, and to list him in the Bible as a Prophet in Jude shows that God may consider him an important Character in the future as well of at present. I have always been taught it was Moses and Elijah. the Scriptures that God would send a prophet like Moses was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and that Elijah would pave the way of the Lord fulfilled in John the Baptist and verified by Jesus that he was indeed Elijah. doesn't mean they wont be but it also doesn't mean they will either. God could use two totally different people and we could all be proven wrong. because God can use any Jew to be a witness if he is serving the Lord by faith. I had thought that because in the Tribulation God is dealing with Israel mainly but he is also dealing with the Gentile Nations. who will also be afflicted by the plagues of the two witnesses. So I figured it wouldn't be to far fetched for God to use one Gentile witness (who is considered in line with the Lord-Enoch) and one Jewish witness this way the tribulation witness for what they are is witnessed to the whole world not just the Jews. the whole world is in the same boat Jew or Gentile when it comes to the Seven year Day of the LORD's wrath. but that is just my idea not that it is correct Last edited by chette777; 06-23-2009 at 11:29 PM. |
#56
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Here is what amazes me: Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. What is the significance of the "and" I highlighted? No one seems to argue that Elijah is the first Witness: 1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word. I'm not going to post 5 chapters from Exodus, look in Rev. 11:6 "and" we see that we are given twice the evidence that Moses is the Second Witness yet most people bury their head in the sand, all that down there is the "Gestalt" method of "interpretation" that was taught by that crazy TV evangelist Gene Scott back in the 80s. "Consider all alternatives". Yeah, Charley Manson made good use of Revelation, let's ask him. Grace and peace brother Tony |
#57
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We know it describes similar miraculous events of turning water to blood but it still doesn't prove it is Moses. and it does not say what plagues they will smite the earth with. are you say it will be frogs and flies, lice and boils. and even if it is all of them. Rev11:6 does not prove that it is Moses. there are seven plagues poured out on the earth and they could be using those plagues to inflict upon the earth. But remember Moses didn't do these things GOD DID through him. Ex 3:20 God Speaking, And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go. God can use anyone he chooses to perform those same plagues. It doesn't prove it is Moses. The only reason people say it is Elijah is because they don't believe what Jesus Said that Elijah had come in the person of John. And because it says in Rev11:6 that the witness would stop the rain. It doesn't prove it is Elijah any more Rev11:6 proves it is Moses. just because the rains stop and water turns to blood and plagues doesn't prove it is either of these men. Because it is God doing it through the two not who the two men are. I don't beleive it will be Elijah because the rains are stopped. I believe it was Elijah because he did not see death Just as I feel it will be Enoch. But as George pointed out it doesn't mean that all men have to die once or at all. I do know this, I died in Christ and that is all that really matters. But you constant putting down of others as "putting their heads in the sand. . . ", and saying they aren't studying scriptures out to see it your way is getting a little tiresome. I will not cut and paste all your jabs of your intellectual superiority and the putting down of others. As reading them once is enough. you are beginning to sound like a newly graduated College student who is out to tell everyone what it is or is not without regards for anyone's feeling. You are showing signs of disrespect which you seemed to be very respectful early on in your posts but lately I don't know what happened to you. I don't think there is any need of it and you should stop it before I loose what little respect I have left for you. So I give you a challenge. Just one clear scripture is all i need that says without any adding to it or allogorizing, or spiritualizing that Moses will return in the LAST DAYS. And these two do not count seeing they are speaking of Jesus Christ and were fulfilled completely in him. De 18:15 ¶ The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; De 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Last edited by chette777; 06-24-2009 at 12:21 AM. |
#58
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Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. |
#59
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Re: "The Two Witnesses"
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Aloha brother Sammy, I'm with you 100%. If I said something to mislead you - I apologize. My point in my Post #52 was simply IF Moses & Elijah have "glorified" bodies, they couldn't possibly be the "two witnesses" (since it would be impossible for them to die); but since the Scriptures do NOT SAY they have "glorified" bodies, then there is nothing preventing them from being the "two witnesses". I believe between what brother Tony, CKG, peopleoftheway, yourself, and myself (the old curmudgeon), that we have presented a fairly solid Scriptural "case" for the "two witnesses" as being Moses & Elijah. (We can safely discard "whirlwinds" disjointed ramblings as being just that.) As I have said before - I will not argue or debate over this issue and I refuse to belabor the point or make a "big deal" over it. Brother Chette has been honest and above board about his not "being sure", and I for one am not going to try to REPLACE the Holy Spirit in trying to give brother Chette discernment and understanding in this matter. I see my responsibility as putting out the Scriptures and instruction in facts about the Bible. It's the Holy Spirit's job to teach spiritual discernment, understanding, and wisdom! I can "point things out", but the Holy Spirit is the One Who witnesses to the "truth" and convinces us of the veracity of spiritual issues through the study of His Holy words. |
#60
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I too died in Christ, and yes, HE is all that really matters. "No man save Jesus only!" |
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