[chette777]

People sounds to me there is a calling there to start a fellowship of Bible Believers. You should pray about that and if the Lord is leading start one by faith.

I can give you 100 testimonies (if not more) as to God providing for him who he calls. I started this fellowship with a $20 a month promise. went to nothing and now I have a regular amount (not enough to live on in the States but enough for here). The car we bought by faith last July has been fully paid off as of this month. that was our latest testimony to God's provision by faith.

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by chette777

People sounds to me there is a calling there to start a fellowship of Bible Believers. You should pray about that and if the Lord is leading start one by faith.

I can give you 100 testimonies (if not more) as to God providing for him who he calls. I started this fellowship with a $20 a month promise. went to nothing and now I have a regular amount (not enough to live on in the States but enough for here). The car we bought by faith last July has been fully paid off as of this month. that was our latest testimony to God's provision by faith.

Thanks for that Brother.
You know way back in 1957 my grandfather and 3 or 4 friends disagreed with the Church system here in Northern Ireland and the apostate nature of most of them so they, through prayer and faith built a Gospel hall. Not a massive hall, a decent sized Gospel hall seats about 100, baptismal tank and prayer room. They trod miles on foot every day to witness and to invite the local community to the hall for Gospel meetings, I even recall my Grandfather and his friend building a bridge over a small stream (Cut almost 2-3 miles of a journey) so that the young folks of the area could come to the Hall to hear the Word of God in Sunday school. I remember as a small child going to Sunday school there and sometimes the meetings spilled outside due to lack of room. Last year I visited the hall again and I was quite disheartened to learn that some had come in with peculiar teachings and modern versions and the numbers had greatly dropped. I ask if you could pray for me to get in touch with my Grandfathers old fellowship (those who are still alive) and possibly help to bring back the Zeal to the Hall and encourage the young people to attend again, if that is the Lords will for me.
I would very much like to visit the Philippines one day and come and see you and your Church.

Much Love in the Lord

[chette777]

we will most definitely be praying for God still has souls that need teh truth there where you are at. I would love to help so prayers is the first step. you can visit our web page for now seeing airfare is so expensive. It should be on my profile.

[boaz212]

Hi George, my name is Tim. I just joined the forum. I have been studying Romans 9. I understand that the context of the chapter is on the election of the nation of Israel. But a calvinist would twist it to mean predestination of the saved/lost. I have some questions on your study on this chapter. I have a few things I am not understanding so I can't put the whole chapter together. I need your help.

[I]Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/I]
To whom is the mercy/compassion referring to?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? What does it mean "made me thus"? What's the complaint? Is the vessel of wrath referring to just the pharoah? What how do you define "fitted"? and the meaning "fitted to destruction"? And lastly, what is the "glory" in v23 referring to?

It has been a bit frustrating for me trying to sort through the maze of calvinism. Your explanation in this thread has been a great blessing to me. Thanks for your help.

[boaz212]

I just remembered another question I have.

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
My understanding of repentance is a change of heart/mind that we have to make. So I am having a difficult time with this verse that sounds like repentance is given by God. I know this verse will come up as I talk to calvinists in my church. I think they might say that without God's help, no one can repent and believe Christ. Thanks again for the help.
Tim

[Luke]

The problem with being against Calvinism's "sovereign" God that decrees everything, is that sometimes, we make ourselves a God who does nothing...

God DOES draw people to himself. God does touch hearts. God does move men. God does bring conviction.

The Bible clearly says that no one can come to Jesus unless God draws them.

What the Calvinist does is say that this "drawing" is the new birth, and no one can come to God until they are born again. Basically, they are regenerated before they are saved.

The Bible has it the other way around. We are convicted by the word, by the Holy Spirit. We come to God because we see our need, and He has provided, and He regenerates us by grace through faith.

Having said that - I'm not sure who that verse is to be applied to. It refers to someone who has been decieved by the devil. They oppose themselves. I am not sure what that means. False doctrines perhaps.. They are saved but their false doctrines confuse them. Not sure.

[George]

Originally Posted by boaz212

Hi George, my name is Tim. I just joined the forum. I have been studying Romans 9. I understand that the context of the chapter is on the election of the nation of Israel. But a calvinist would twist it to mean predestination of the saved/lost. I have some questions on your study on this chapter. I have a few things I am not understanding so I can't put the whole chapter together. I need your help.

[I]Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/i]
To whom is the mercy/compassion referring to?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? What does it mean "made me thus"? What's the complaint? Is the vessel of wrath referring to just the pharoah? What how do you define "fitted"? and the meaning "fitted to destruction"? And lastly, what is the "glory" in v23 referring to?

It has been a bit frustrating for me trying to sort through the maze of calvinism. Your explanation in this thread has been a great blessing to me. Thanks for your help.

Aloha brother Tim,

I am working on an answer to your questions, and will reply soon. However, let me say that although I have been a student of the Bible for 50 years (a serious student for about 40 of those years), I do not have all of the "answers" to some of those Bible issues that "are hard to be understood" and the Apostle Paul had more than his share! [2Peter 3:16]

If you ask me to "rightly divide" the Book of Matthew or the Book of Acts (where many a "Bible scholar" stumbles) I have very little problem, BUT when it comes to the Book of Romans or the Book of Hebrews, that's another story.

I believe that the reason for my difficulty is that the "KEY" to understanding the Books of Matthew & Acts is the "JEWS" - if a Christian can rightly divide between the Jews; the Gentiles; and the church of God (i.e. Christians) [1Corinthians 10:32], rightly dividing the word of truth in those Books is not that difficult. On the other hand Paul's Letters are another matter!

The Apostle Paul's Letters require much more discernment than keeping track of the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God. Much of what Paul writes requires spiritual discernment and understanding [1 Corinthians 2:1-16] that only God can give. No church, no "Bible school", and no man (myself included) can teach or give another man this kind of "discernment" and "understanding"; and I don't claim to understand ALL THINGS, nor do I claim to have the ability to be able to "transfer" what little discernment and understanding I do have to others.

Paul's Letters basically deal with two main issues (i.e. "weightier matters") - Bible "DOCTRINE" & Christian "CONDUCT". I "get" most of what Paul has to say about our "conduct", but I confess (with Peter) that "in all of his epistles" - there are "some things hard to be understood". And your questions are dealing with some of those "things".

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I see the New Testament as the complete "Testimony" of and about our Lord Jesus Christ. The Gospels = God's testimony to Christ's earthly "ministry" (almost exclusively to the Jews); The Acts = Christ's return to His Father and His working (through the Holy Spirit) using His Apostles and Prophets (servants & ministers) to establish HIS church; The Apostles Letters or "Epistles" (especially Paul's) = WHY He came; WHAT He accomplished; and HOW He accomplished it. In other words the Gospels are a PICTURE or illustration of the Lord Jesus Christ's life and ministry here on earth; and the rest of the New Testament is a COMMENTARY about Him, His Life, His Ministry and the fact that He is coming back (Revelation and the rest of the New Testament prophecies.) In other words, the whole of the New Testament is all about THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

Your questions deal with the "WHY" (God did what He did); and the "HOW" (the manner in which He accomplished His "work"); i.e. "strong meat" indeed; and not "easy" questions - to which there are no "easy" answers. I will try to answer your questions, but you must understand, better men than I have stumbled over these issues, and my "understanding" of them is incomplete - at best. [1 Corinthians 13:9-12]

From your testimony I perceive that you may be a bit "frustrated" (either with those people who may be mistaken, or possibly your inability to understand some of the word of God). My advise to you is don't let "Christians" get you down - keep your eyes on the Lord, He will never fail you. And don't get discouraged trying to understand God's words. The worst thing that Christians do (when it comes to studying the word of God) is FORCING the Scriptures into some "system" so that they can understand it (.i.e Calvinism, Hyper-Dispensationalism, Arminianism, or any other "ISM"). If you don't understand something in God's Holy word - Let it be; get on with your studies; don't "FORCE" a "private interpretation" upon it in order to understand it. If God wants you to know something - He'll show you (in His time), and if He doesn't show you, all of the books, schools, and Bible teachers in the world are NOT going to be able to give you the discernment and understanding that God will give you (if, and when, He sees fit to give it to you).

Your questions are dealing with the "strong meat" of God's word, and I sometimes have difficulty "digesting" God's "strong meat".

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

At my age (considering how long I have been saved) I should have a much better understanding of some of these issues; and if I had spent as much time studying "The Book" - as I did studying ABOUT "The Book", perhaps God would have given me more light on the matter.

You have asked some excellent questions. I hope that I can answer them satisfactorily.

[Winman]

Boaz212

I am almost reluctant to try and answer your questions, as I am sure Brother George will do a far better job.

My personal opinion, and remember, no scripture is of private interpretation, it that people are reading Romans Chapter 9 wrong. I am no scholar, I simply read the Bible and ask God to give me wisdom to understand. And I can testify that God has answered my prayers many times. I have prayed about a certain verse or passage that I could not understand, only to attend Church and the Pastor preach on that very passage and make it clear as day. And in a few cases, the Lord just seemed to open my understanding and suddenly the passage was clear. Sometimes you get an answer very soon, sometimes you have to wait awhile. But if you are sincere, God will answer you.

James 1: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

There you go, God is happy to give you wisdom if you ask, so don't doubt Him.

Now, to how I read Romans Chapter 9. I always approach problems in the same way I was taught in Algebra many years ago. Always take what you do know, to determine what you do not know.

Now, this we know, God is not willing that any should perish.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Now, remember that word "longsuffering", because you are going to see that again in Romans 9. And another important word there is "repentance".

We also know that God does not tempt any man to sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

So here we have two very simple and straightforward things we KNOW. God is not willing that any person should perish, and God does not cause any man to sin.

And Election? Have you ever heard a radio show where they say, "the first person to call in and tell us what year the movie Wizard of Oz came out will win a thousand dollars!"? That is election. If you call in and give the correct answer first, it has already been determined beforehand that you will win the prize. If you call in and give the wrong answer, or you are correct but you were not the first to call in with the correct answer, it has already been determined beforehand that you will not win the prize.

And God has determined that He will only save those who come to Him in faith.

This is what Romans 9:15 means.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

And this is explained in earlier verses.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

God has already determined he will have mercy on those who come to Him by faith, not works, or not because of genealogy (descended from Abraham according to the flesh).

Now, here is where it gets tricky. God already knows who will come to Him by faith, and God knows who will not. And this was the case with Pharoah. God knew beforehand that Pharoah would rebel and resist God.

Now, that is not God's fault. God gives every person free will. You must come to God because you LOVE him, not because you are a robot that has no choice. This is where some go wrong. They think God is cruel and determines some to be punished forever, and chooses some to have everlasting life. No, God gives every man free choice. And that is how it should be. If you were getting married, would you want your wife to marry you because she chose you and loved you, or because you stuck a shotgun in her face and demanded she marry you? No, real love always gives a person free will and choice, and God gives you free will and choice.

Have you ever had a debate with someone where you knew (or at least felt) you were correct, and knew they were wrong? And no matter how much evidence you provide that person, instead of agreeing with you, they just get more and more stubborn?

I argued with my wife once over the words to a song. She was singing a song and got the words wrong. I laughed (big mistake) and told her that is not how the song went. She got offended and insisted she was correct. I insisted I was correct, she insisted she was correct. We got in such a heated argument over this silly song that we did not speak to each other for over a week. We never did resolve it, we just dropped it.

But that is how Pharoah was. Pharoah was stubborn. He did not like to be wrong, he did not want to listen to God or anybody else. So in this sense God hardened his heart, by commanding him to let God's people go. The more God told him, and the plagues God brought upon him, the angrier Pharoah got, and the more determined to resist God he became.

Now read Roman 9:17-18 and it will make sense.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Yes, God used Pharoah to demonstrate his power. He knew Pharoah would resist Him, and God could show his great power in bringing the Israelites out of Egypt. But God did not make Pharoah stubborn, that was Pharoah's own fault.

Now look at Rom 9:19-22

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

First, note that they asked "why hast thou made me thus?" You hear that a lot today. The homosexuals will claim that they have no choice in their lifestyle, that God made them that way. But that is not true.

Notice how I highlighted "of the same lump" in verse 21, this is very important. We are all made from the same lump. God does not create you good or evil, you CHOOSE to be good or evil. You can come to Jesus in faith, or you can choose your own way. But remember, God has already determined beforehand that He will only accept those who come to Him by His Son Christ Jesus in faith. He will have mercy on those who come to Him in faith, He will have no mercy on those who choose their own way.

And notice verse 22, where God says "he endured with much long-suffering".
He gave Pharoah every possible chance he could. At one point Pharoah even admitted he had sinned.

Exo 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.

But Pharoah said this for convenience. He just wanted the plague to end, and once it did, he went right back to his old stubborn ways.

Exo 9:33 And Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh, and spread abroad his hands unto the LORD: and the thunders and hail ceased, and the rain was not poured upon the earth. 34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

Yes, God caused Pharoah to harden his heart by confronting him, but it was Pharoah's own personal choice.

So, God is not wrong to show His power and wrath on those who stubbornly resist Him, and He is not wrong to show mercy to those who obey Him by coming in faith.

I hope this helped. This is how I understand this chapter.

[boaz212]

Winman, thanks for your reply. I will go over your post a few more times. I already found things very helpful to me!

Thanks George, while you are working on your answer, I have been reading over and over again that whole section ch.9-11. Can't wait to get your insights. Take care.

Tim

[Timotheus]

Firstly, thank you for sharing with us your study on Calvinism Brother George. It was a blessing to read, and most edifying.

I have a few questions I wish to ask, though I don't mean to add any more work to this otherwise long study.

A friend of mine recently sent me this website on Calvanism and why the five points are Biblical. I still haven't done much research into beyond taking note that their doctrine is not derived from the Perfect Word of God.

But here are a few highlights that I have questions on.

The totality of our rebellion is seen in Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes."

It is a myth that man in his natural state is genuinely seeking God. Men do seek God. But they do not seek him for who he is. They seek him in a pinch as one who might preserve them from death or enhance their worldly enjoyments. Apart from conversion, no one comes to the light of God.

Some do come to the light. But listen to what John 3:20-21 says about them. "Every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."

Yes there are those who come to the light—namely those whose deeds are the work of God. "Wrought in God" means worked by God. Apart from this gracious work of God all men hate the light of God and will not come to him lest their evil be exposed—this is total rebellion. "No one seeks for God...There is no fear of God before their eyes!"

So they are stating we are in total rebellion and nothing about us is in line with God (before salvation) correct, because any "good" thing we do is wrought in God, and if we are Wrought in God we must be saved? Seems a little circular to me.

Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total.

Picking up on the term "flesh" above (man apart from the grace of God) we find Paul declaring it to be totally enslaved to rebellion. Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

The "mind of the flesh" is the mind of man apart from the indwelling Spirit of God ("You are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you," Romans 8:9). So natural man has a mindset that does not and cannot submit to God. Man cannot reform himself.

Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves.

And that, well that part went over my head.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...ism/#Depravity

Is the site my friend sent me though.

I thought at the very least it might be good for your study to get other Calvanisitic views on their doctrine.