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Old 11-19-2008, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh View Post
Hmm... You say that God first created the heaven and the earth, then destroyed it, then re-created it and the other heavens. But Genesis 2:4 says, "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens". Seems the heavens were made in the same day as the earth.
You addressed a tiny little sliver of my post; when a person looks at the big picture, it becomes apparent that there is more to be seen than just "Seems the heavens were made in the same day as the earth." There are quite a few holes in your side of the argument that can't be covered by that little verse.

Genesis 1:3 was the FIRST day. Time did exist since 1:1, but being that Jesus Christ was the light, and all the created beings were spiritual, there was no need of a light/dark cycle, or "days."

Something else to keep in mind is that "day," while in the Creation refers to a 24 (ish) - hour period, the "day of the Lord" is not a specific day at all, but a period of time. While I don't have a definite response at this very instant (I need a nap), there is more to be done on your side than simply "HA! Day, I win, you loose, blah blah blah." I outlined several things that need to be addressed other than the single opposition you present.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:32 PM
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Here are my thoughts, Brother Vince.

Quote:
When you find the same exact word or phrase used the same way in two different places about two different things, it's imperative that the reader note that and allow God to show the similarities.
I agree with you here. I think context of the passage is always imperative though, and therefore, must be considered to arrive at the truth.

Quote:
Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23 parallel almost perfectly: the subject in both sentences is the earth, and in both places it is referred to as "without form, and void;" even to the point of the exact same usage and punctuation!! Were that to appear anywhere else in the Bible, anyone would simply accept it as Biblical truth and a God-given cross-reference. However, when it comes to a "questionable" teaching or doctrine, the "brethren" get skittish and look for a way out.
Almost perfectly? I accept the Biblical truth in the context it is presented.
Jeremiah 4:19-28 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
My understanding of Jeremiah 4:19-28, is that in no way does it have anything to do with the “beginning” when God created the “heaven and the earth.” Yes, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Jeremiah described what the Lord revealed by using some exact words found in Genesis regarding the creation, however, in my understand of the word this is clearly not a written record or address of the beginning when God created.

Jeremiah, under inspiration, wrote:
  • I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
  • and the heavens, and they had no light.
  • I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
  • I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
  • I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
  • For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
  • For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Quote:
Without a "Gap," you have a God who created a "without form, and void" mud ball, and one "heaven," and then decided "Whoops, I needed three of those!" and created two more. I have a God that created a perfect paradise for the Sons of God (Job 38:4-7)...
Personally, I do not see how you get the above thoughts and understanding from:
Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
I do not believe the scripture teaches God created, as you say, “a mud ball” and had a “whoops” experience. I simply believe that “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:1-2).
I agree with the definition of form: wht tohuw to'-hoo from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:--confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
God fashioned the heaven, heavens, and the earth in the exact order He chose. He took an earth, that HE created, that was “without form” and gave it form. He made no blunder or mistake or "whoops." And His time schedule was perfect.
I also agree with the definition for the word void: whb bohuw bo'-hoo from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:--emptiness, void.
He made something out of that which was “without form, and void.” My understanding is that, “…God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day” (Genesis 1:31).

Quote:
“…subsequently destroyed in a cataclysmic, supernatural rebellion, which took His 4-Dimensional, Divine Creation (Gen. 1:1, Eph. 3:18) and degraded it into our current 3-Dimensional universe…
Where does this come from? Personally, I do not see in Holy Scripture any destruction or supernatural rebellion occurring in Genesis 1:1. In my understanding of the scripture, God did not “[see] every thing that he had made [and say] it was very good” which included a cataclysmic, supernatural rebellion.

Quote:
God's throne (Heaven) was still 4D (Eph. 3:18) but the remainder was divided into two parts (2 - number of division) which we know as "space" and the atmosphere…
Ephesians 3:14-19 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
I simply do not see Ephesians 3, teaching 4 Dimensions. I understand it to be Paul’s prayer and passion to see the believers at Ephesus know the “…breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.” I believe the context is supported by the entire letter to the Church at Ephesus and that this prayer corresponds with his first prayer in Ephesians 1:15-23.
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Quote:
He then recreated the demolished earth (Gen. 1:2) into a beautiful planet where He placed the king to rule His creation: Adam.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Sorry, I simply cannot reconcile this teaching with, “He then recreated the demolished earth (Gen. 1:2) into a beautiful planet where He placed the king to rule His creation: Adam.”
  #13  
Old 11-19-2008, 03:12 PM
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Amen Forrest!! We see eye to eye on this.
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:45 PM
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I have 3 "stacks" of Christian subject matter(for the lack of a better word phrase)that are "the highest", i.e., in which I have an intense interest:

1. Dispensationalism
2. "Romanism"
3. Gap theory

Accordingly, I thought the below link would be FYE re. the GAP theory(amongst many I have accumulated over the years). I would add that I understand that Gaines R. Johnson is a "staunch" KJB only advocate,witnesss the site address words used.

As ususal, "check it out" with the Book-Acts 17:11

http://www.kjvbible.org/

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

at
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Old 11-26-2008, 08:25 AM
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In response to your last post, Bro. Whalen, I have to say that I agree with that fellow and disagree with him at the same time. I do believe that Young-Earth Creationism is true, though I believe the earth is a bit older than they believe it to be. Not millions of years to account for some mythological "geologic ages" or evolutionary nonsense, though.

Here is some information I prepared and my wife posted on a forum some time back; at the time it was at a place where it would not be received well (saying "Ruckman" was a good way to get shot!) but I think this forum would be a less volatile location to post some notes from Doc's Genesis class, as well as my own charts and thoughts on the matter.

Quote:
In Genesis 1:1, it states "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth." Notice two things: 1) It does not say how long it took, when it happened, what He created or where it happened, It just says that He made it; 2) there's only one heaven mentioned here. The next verse states that the earth that was created in the previous verse is now without form and void (Kent Hovind is wrong; "without form and void" means "without form and void," not "unformed and unfilled"). Therefore, something occurred between verse one and verse two. The Bible doesn't explain this original creation in this passage; It gives us indications and hints in other places (Eze. 28, Isa. 12), but details and definite descriptions aren't readily visible. The six day present creation came after that.

Adam was the first man, according to the Bible. By Adam, sin entered into the world, also according to the Bible. But that verse is talking about this present earth, not the "world that then was" (2 Pet. 3:6). Basically, the universe is shaped like a pyramid (Ps. 48:2, Isa. 14:13) with the third Heaven at the top, the waters above (crystal sea, great sea, great deep) and below separated by the firmament of heaven (space). Before the present creation, however, there was no separation between heaven and the earth, for there was no sin and no need for isolation. God placed Lucifer, the fifth cherub, over the physical creation, while he was still the "covering cherub." In God's dimension (Eph. 3:18), being in Heaven, fulfilling his main purpose, and ruling over the creation on earth at the same time is very likely, though we can't understand it, being that it is a separate dimension. When Lucifer rebelled (Isa. 14:13), he ascended up (relatively) into heaven, and attempted to usurp God's position. He was then repulsed, and the resulting effect is cataloged in Genesis 2:2, Jeremiah 4:23 (figuratively/prophetically).
Original Creation

Genesis 1:2

Recreation

Quote:
Gen. 1:3 ”And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
Absolute light, not sunlight. Time begins (vs. 4-5) before the sun was there to keep the time.

Gen. 1:6 “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters [DEEP], and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.”
Schofield said that the waters in Genesis 1:6-8 are actually “vapors,” but Psalms 148:1-8 puts the WATERS above the HEAVENS and the VAPOR on the earth (v.8). Schofield is just WRONG!

Top of the Deep is frozen (Job) Above is Light/Day, below is Night. There is a firmament (space) in between the waters, and the sun, moon and stars are put in that firmament; the Height, the Deep. “Doctrine of the Great Deep.”
Eph. 3:18 “May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;”
Rom. 8:38 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Ps. 88:6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.
7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
Ps. 187-)15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters. [RAPTURE]
Ps. 66:12 Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.
Ps. 124:4 Then the waters had overwhelmed us, the stream had gone over our soul:
5 Then the proud waters had gone over our soul. (Israel, end of Trib.)
Jer. 5:22 Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?
Gen. 7:11In the six hundredth year of Noah' life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
The Deep is frozen, i.e. Sea of Glass, Crystal Sea; it is NORTH, i.e. Sides of the North, my help cometh....etc.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place , and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further (Jer. 5:22): and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 26:5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place(outer space), and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
9 He holdeth back the face of his throne (heaven), and spreadeth his cloud upon it.
10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds (Jer. 5:22, Job 38:11), until the day and night come to an end. (Crooked serpent)
Job 41:1-10, 18-20, 31 (THE DEEP), 33-34; Isa. 27:1, Ps. 74:14, Rev. 12; Leviathan, CROOKED SERPENT, Taketh up Jordan into his mouth (Job 40), spews it out at Israel. Satan comes up to the Sea of Glass to accuse the brethren; presented himself to God in the book of Job. NORTH STAR, ALPHA DRACONIS; first DRAGON, just SOUTH of the NEW JERUSALEM.
The last part is a little choppy; I was trying to type furiously whilst pausing and rewinding an mp3 and looking up Scriptures: my apologies if it seems fragmented. If anyone wants the mp3 from the Genesis class I took these notes in, I'll be glad to put it up and post a link.


Edit: I wanted to address the apparent difficulty over the Jeremiah reference; the similarities that they share (I said this in a previous post but apparently it wasn't noticed) are that something existed before, since it is NOW without form and void, and that something is about to happen to the subject (earth) by God's own hand. Both cases it seems that God caused it to happen, and they both allude to a previous existence of something. That, my brethren, is irrefutable. The similarities are plain, the differences acknowledged.
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Old 11-26-2008, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMWHALEN View Post
I have 3 "stacks" of Christian subject matter(for the lack of a better word phrase)that are "the highest", i.e., in which I have an intense interest:

1. Dispensationalism
2. "Romanism"
3. Gap theory

Accordingly, I thought the below link would be FYE re. the GAP theory(amongst many I have accumulated over the years). I would add that I understand that Gaines R. Johnson is a "staunch" KJB only advocate,witness the site address words used.

As usual, "check it out" with the Book-Acts 17:11

http://www.kjvbible.org/

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

at
Forgive me for the long post, but this particular reply represents about a week of study, prayer, and contemplation. After reading your reply Brother Vince (post #15), I see why this subject has such "spirited" and "lengthy" debates. I agree with you that it’s good we can “dig for truth” on this Forum and still “With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, [forbear] one another in love” (Ephesians 4:2).

This post addresses the teaching on 2 Peter 3:5-7 from the above referenced link given by Brother Whalen on post #14. Although it may be hard to believe, in my 29 years as a Christian I’ve not read any books or materials or heard any sermons on the subject of the “GAP THEORY,” so my observations are only from the scriptures, and not from other resources that are available to us. I did, however, read the web-page referred to by Brother Whalen and I’m only commenting on it. And Brother Whalen, it did indeed lead me to “search the scriptures” to see “whether these things be so” (Acts 17:11).
The verses I comment on are: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:5-7).
In response to the verses above, Gaines R. Johnson, author of the referenced link, explains in part, and I quote:
“Contrary to popular interpretation, the above passage is NOT a reference to Noah's flood. (See Introduction Pages for specifics.) And the only other place in the Bible where the Earth was covered in waters is Genesis 1:2. The ramifications are obvious: The literal wording suggests that the "heavens and the earth, which are now" (made during the seven days) was not the first-time creation of all things as is traditionally assumed. The Word of God appears to be telling the reader there was a previous populated world on the face of this old Earth before God formed the present world of modern Man.”
I realize he has a lot more to say on the subject, but I wanted to study his specific comments in light of God’s word, comparing scripture with scripture, before being influenced by “other” data provided by Brother Johnson.

It goes without saying, this passage, like all scripture, stands on its own without the commentary of well learned and pious men. I am neither, but I’ve attempted to be thorough, and honest, with the “literal wording”. I’ve also read the word openly without twisting it to fit a preconceived idea. What’s my conclusion? I do not agree with Brother Johnson’s particular view regarding these verses of scripture. In saying that, I believe 2 Peter 3:3-7, references Noah’s day--and flood. Here’s why:
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
EXPLANATION OF VERSES (3) “…there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts” (4) “…all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (5) “For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (6) “…the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished” and (7) “…the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

The word “they” in verse 5, of course, refers to the “scoffers” referred to in verse 3 [a scoffer is a derider, i.e. (by implication) a false teacher:--mocker] who come in the last days and walk after their own lusts. They are ignorant because things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation (verse 4), which will result in the judgment of God (verse 7).

I believe that the Apostle Peter is drawing a parallel between an “older” time recorded in history to a current and coming one. In addition, I believe he is giving a warning in his second epistle by putting the readers in remembrance of both good and evil. “This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:” (2 Peter 3:1).

OF GOOD
2 Peter 1:5-8 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
OF EVIL
2 Peter 2:4-9 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
They [the scoffers] will also be judged [as the individuals in Noah’s day were judged] for their wickedness and their ungodliness. By using the word “as” I am not suggesting the method of judgment is the same, I am emphasizing judgment itself.
Genesis 6:5-7 says “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Genesis 6:11-13 says, “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
The description of mankind in Noah’s day parallels with the Apostle Peter’s description of mankind in the last days. And although the judgments are different, there are judgments in both times. I believe the Apostle Peter refers to Noah and the flood when he writes in 2 Peter 3:6, “Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.”

In Peter’s first epistle (3:20), we also see clear reference to Noah’s day and a time of judgment. We read, “Which sometime were disobedient [see the above verses in Genesis 6 for the detail of their disobedience], when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” This clearly references Noah’s day and a time of judgment.

In Peter’s second epistle (3:7) we see a coming judgment. We read, “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” This is a clear reference to the last days and a coming judgment.

EXPLANATION OF VERSE 5 & 7 (5) “…heavens were of old” and (7) “…the heavens and the earth, which are now

The word “old” means: ekpalai eh'-pal-ahee long ago, for a long while:--of a long time, of old.

The word “old” simply refers to something long ago, of a long time, and of old. These words [“heavens were of old”], in my opinion, do not mean or imply that the “old” heavens must have been re-created with the “new” heavens. But the words “heavens were of old” in verse 5, and the words “the heavens and the earth, which are now” in verse 7, do indeed mean something. But what do they mean?

The words “heavens were of old,” in my understanding, simply refer to the heavens before the flood which is recorded in Genesis 6. What exactly was different long ago regarding the heavens of old before the flood, and the heavens which are now after the flood? Do the scriptures tell us?
In Genesis 2:5–6 we read, “And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. [No rain. How did the plants and the herbs grow?] But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.”
What was the difference between the “heavens” of a long time ago [before the ‘Noah’ flood] and now [after the ‘Noah’ flood]? There was no rain from the heavens before the flood and there was rain from the heavens after the flood.
Jeremiah 10:13 says, “When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.” This clearly refers to the same heavens the Apostle Peter wrote about, “which are now,” after the flood. It rains from the heavens.
EXPLANATION OF VERSE 6 “Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished”

I think this clearly teaches that the world and its orderly arrangement, inhabitants, and adornment in Noah’s day, perished or was destroyed when it was flooded by water. Keep in mind that the Apostle Peter has already said that God “…spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly” (2 Peter 2:5).
Genesis 6:17 says, “And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.”
Genesis 7:21-24 says, “And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.”
EXPLANATION OF VERSE 7 - “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

The heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved, because God’s word says:
Genesis 8:21-22 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Notice carefully. We can conclude that the above verses reference the “earth” and the “heavens”. The words “seedtime and harvest” certainly refer to the earth. And the words “day and night” include the heavens.

And the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men because God’s word says:
2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
CONCLUDING THOUGHTS

By considering and comparing “scripture” with “scripture,” my opinion is that 2 Peter 3:5-7, is referencing Noah’s flood. If this is the case, then part of the foundation, in my opinion, for those who support a "Gap Theory," dissolves.

Quote:
From MC's post#15: Adam was the first man, according to the Bible. By Adam, sin entered into the world, also according to the Bible. But that verse is talking about this present earth, not the "world that then was" (2 Pet. 3:6).
On the other hand, if a person believes that the Apostle Peter was referring to a time, and to a world we don't really have any clear, written explanation of, what can I say?

Quote:
From MC's post#15 The Bible doesn't explain this original creation in this passage; It gives us indications and hints in other places (Eze. 28, Isa. 12), but details and definite descriptions aren't readily visible. [Yet you, or whomever you're quoting, come to the conclusion] The six day present creation came after that.
  #17  
Old 11-26-2008, 03:54 PM
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I was really into your response there...it seemed as if you had done a completely honest job, but then of course I ran into this:

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Originally Posted by Forrest View Post
The word “old” means: ekpalai eh'-pal-ahee long ago, for a long while:--of a long time, of old.
...and oh well.

2 Peter 3 draws a parallel between the first time the entire earth was destroyed (between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2) and the final destruction by fire; I've touched on that in response to the word "elements," either here or other places. God called the earth before Noah "the old world" (2 Pet. 2:5) and the pre-Adamic earth "the world that then was" (2 Pet. 3:6): I take that at face value and say that apparently, since Noah is mentioned in one instance, and not in another, that they are two different time periods, one including Noah, and one not including Noah. Remember, God works in threes (Gen. 1:1-2; Gen. 7; 2 Pet. 3:10, Rev. 21:1).

Also: please denote when you have added emphasis to a quote, and it's best to leave the quote intact and comment on it outside of the actual quote. Thanks.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
I was really into your response there...it seemed as if you had done a completely honest job, but then of course I ran into this:

...and oh well.

2 Peter 3 draws a parallel between the first time the entire earth was destroyed (between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2) and the final destruction by fire; I've touched on that in response to the word "elements," either here or other places. God called the earth before Noah "the old world" (2 Pet. 2:5) and the pre-Adamic earth "the world that then was" (2 Pet. 3:6): I take that at face value and say that apparently, since Noah is mentioned in one instance, and not in another, that they are two different time periods, one including Noah, and one not including Noah. Remember, God works in threes (Gen. 1:1-2; Gen. 7; 2 Pet. 3:10, Rev. 21:1).

Also: please denote when you have added emphasis to a quote, and it's best to leave the quote intact and comment on it outside of the actual quote. Thanks.
Quote:
You wrote: 2 Peter 3 draws a parallel between the first time the entire earth was destroyed (between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2)…
Sorry, what scriptures do you use to support that the earth was destroyed between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? You referred to some scriptures in your previous posts #9 and #15. Jeremiah 4, in context, clearly speaks of a judgment on Jerusalem. The Prophet Jeremiah saw, in a vision, the earth where Jerusalem once stood and, after judgment, it was a pile of rubble. "Without form and void." And I cannot see a destruction of the earth between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 which can be supported by Isaiah 12 or Ezekiel 28.

As you, or someone you were quoting from a sermon or book has said:

Quote:
The Bible doesn't explain this original creation in this passage; It gives us indications and hints in other places (Eze. 28, Isa. 12), but details and definite descriptions aren't readily visible.
Okay. I agree with that conclusion. By the way, are those your thoughts or do they come from someone else?

Quote:
God called the earth before Noah "the old world" (2 Pet. 2:5) and the pre-Adamic earth "the world that then was" (2 Pet. 3:6): I take that at face value and say that apparently, since Noah is mentioned in one instance, and not in another, that they are two different time periods, one including Noah, and one not including Noah.
Concerning…
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
The words:
in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:20)

the old world, but saved Noah (2 Peter 2:5)

the world that then was, being overflowed with water (2 Peter 3:6)
In my opinion, all speak of the same world and same time in history. This does not speak of a previous world, earth, or heaven that existed before Noah.

Quote:
...apparently, since Noah is mentioned in one instance, and not in another, that they are two different time periods...
I don't agree with you. If your particular reasoning is true, then we can say that about other scriptures. For example, there is no mention in John 1:1 that the "Word" refers to Jesus, so how do we really know that in the beginning the "Word" is really speaking of Jesus? We know it by comparing scripture with scripture. There is no mention in John 16:7 of the Holy Spirit, yet we know by comparing scripture with scripture in the previous two chapters that the Comforter is the Spirit. "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Quote:
Remember, God works in threes (Gen. 1:1-2; Gen. 7; 2 Pet. 3:10, Rev. 21:1).
Okay.

1. He created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)

2. He will destroy the heavens and the earth. (Revelation 21:1)

3. He will create a new heaven and a new earth. (Revelation 21:1)
  #19  
Old 11-26-2008, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MC1171611 View Post
#3

Gen. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Notice the wording: eastward IN Eden. Eden is a region; there was a garden placed within that region. The garden itself was not called Eden, as is customary to say. Garden IN Eden, not garden OF Eden. Now watch carefully.

Ezek. 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

(emphasis mine)

And here's the bad guy:

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Lucifer inhabited a Garden CALLED Eden; this was not a garden IN Eden, this is a garden CALLED Eden. Two different things; things that are different are not the same. There's a lot more; this always leads to a study on Lucifer that's rather mind-boggling, but now I must shower, take a nap, and get ready for work.

God bless.
Here's my understanding of what the scriptures are saying.

Quote:
Gen. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Notice the wording: eastward IN Eden. Eden is a region; there was a garden placed within that region. The garden itself was not called Eden, as is customary to say. Garden IN Eden, not garden OF Eden. Now watch carefully.

Ezek. 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God...

This simply means that Satan was in Eden, specifically the garden of God, which was eastward in Eden. Satan was in Eden. Satan was in the garden of God. The garden of God was eastward in Eden.
  #20  
Old 11-27-2008, 12:27 AM
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Again, Eden in Ezekiel is a Garden, and Eden in Genesis 2 is a location.

Things that are different are not the same.
 

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